This may make interesting reading for people who have invested in Poland

[hythorn]

valid points yet again

There are many people who are starting to doubt whether Poland will be able to deliver as a country. The highway program has had millions of Euros thrown at it but the money disappeared and only a symbolic distance of highways was built. To make matters worse, it transpires that the concrete did not contain enough cement (read cement company in cahoots with builder to defraud the government) and the highway around Poznan is crumbling and needs to be relaid.

2012 is a key date in order to see if Poland can deliver as a country. The stadia need to be completed on time and highways need building. It is an acid test to see if the country can deliver and get itself together.

If they fail, they will be stripped of the right to host the event probably at a time when the stadia will be 30% completed. it will be a clear sign to investors across the globe that Poles could not organise a p*ss up in a brewery. I do not believe this to be the case by the way and sincerely hope that the Euro 2012 gig is a roaring success but the old adage 'any Pole would glady die for Poland but no one would ever work for it' springs to mind.

Time will tell....

 

[bobby04]

1. There are trouble with preparation for Euro 2012 but to be honest I do not see any real reason why would a couple of thousand short-time visitors in 2012 fuel the Polish property market. If the prices go up - you won't be able to resell to Poles after 2012.

The big benefit from Euro 2012 as I see it is the improvements in infrastructure that are planned/ongoing. I believe this will have a long term and lasting benefit, and can only help prop if not push property prices in locations which directly benefit from some of these improvements. Would people not agree with this analysis?

 

[hythorn]

I, for one, would wholeheartedly agree.
Euro 2012 is far more than a bunch of blokes kicking a football about
If any government makes promises to improving road and rail links they can stall for years. However unexpectedly being awarded a top sporting event galvanises the country and gives the government a concrete deadline by which time to have the infrastructure in place by. Improved road and rail links will benefit the entire region. if a truck goes to Moscow from anywhere in Western Europe, the driver has to drive through the middle of Warsaw, there is no ring road. The Czechs (who generally speaking do not like Poles and vice-versa) say that at the end of the second world war the Poles rebuilt all the damaged churches and old buildings but left the roads unrepaired.

 

[polish_bloke]

Roads, infrastructure? Well, I have to agree with Hythorn.

However there are no roads in Ireland either. I haven't seen too much of railway network too. And still Irealnd is/was an European Tiger. What I mean is, even if they build hundreds of A-roads and a metro from Krakow to Zakopane (150km) there is no economical/political background to make any use of them after Euro.

In doubt? Check what has happened to the newly opened toll motorway Warsaw-Poznan. The Regional Road Authority had to implement serious back-road refurbishment schemes in order to make these roads unusable for driving, in order to force cars to the new toll motorway.

Once Euro 2012 is long forgotten, what is the use of several stadiums and several roads when Poles will be even poorer due to the costs they will have to pay in taxes. Who will afford the roads?

IMHO Euro 2012 is a national disaster not a blessing.

Properties? Sell in 2011 at latest.

 

[polish_bloke]

Short clarification:
Due to a high tolls majority of drivers avoid new motorways.
Government doesn't reduce the tolls, their solution is to make live on B and C roads tougher.

 

[hythorn]

I thoroughly respect your points however if you want to go from France to Russia by motor vehicle you cannot avoid crossing Poland. There is more necessarity for Poland to have modern highways than Ireland. There would not be much sense linking Krakow with the mountain resort of Zakopane when the highway from the German border does not reach Poznan as yet.
A decent highway north-south would enable Czech, Slovakian and Hungarian manufacturers to have access to the Baltic ports of Szczecin and/or Gdansk-Gdynia. I first moved to Poland in '93 and they were talking about a nationwide highway route north south and east to west.

 

[Jacek]

wow, what a beautiful malcontents’ duo

let me have a bit emotional thread...

although I may share some of the points raised, I believe that despite some 'drawbacks' Poland will deliver as a country. why? because of Poles’ creativity, entrepreneurial spirit, patriotism and somewhat independence from politics, but also a run for action if needed. I though believe in Max Weber’s theory on determination of country’s performance/ wealth on the grounds of dominant religion, so Poland would most probably follow the status/ path of Italy or Spain, rather than Sweden or Denmark.

for all critics may I dedicate a well known sentence in Poland (it may originate from Holy Bible but I’m not too sure...): ‘It’s easier to spot a splinter in other’s eye than a beam in the own one’.

peace

Jacek

 

[stir crazy]

I though believe in Max Weber’s theory on determination of country’s performance/ wealth on the grounds of dominant religion, so Poland would most probably follow the status/ path of Italy or Spain, rather than Sweden or Denmark.

Isnt Spain doing allright lately ?
.. hmm but what does Max Weber (erm who is he?) say about Irelands' status/path ? Do we disprove or prove whatever it is he said ?

 

[polish_bloke]

@ Hythorn

I agree that a good road network is important for prosperity of a country. It's not crucial though - again IRE as an example, you're doing well even though there is no transit routes. Even if all neighbours would use Polish roads and ports it wouldn't add much value to the main point of our interest - properties (unless you want to invest in petrol station or a motel).

What I am saying is - no matter what they do for the Euro 2012, if they don't improve overall state of the Polish economy (taxes, stable law, predictable politics), it will be all wasted.

On the 2008 April Fools' Day Polish government voted to surrender Polish independence to European Union. I would not oppose if EU have adopted Irish liberal economy but it seems that it is Germany and France that will rule/influence the new entity after it's creation on 1st January 2009. And why are Germans looking for jobs in IRE not the other way round?

Summary:
high taxes, unpredictable business law, not effective courts, bureaucracy, corruption, unstable governments, european socialism and global crisis versus Euro 2012. I think I know the result of the battle.

I do invest in PL now, but I look forward to sell everything and move the capital somewhere (IRL/Spain/USA??) by 2012.

 

[Jacek]

Isnt Spain doing allright lately ?

they are afaik. so it's even better forecast for Poland

.. hmm but what does Max Weber (erm who is he?) say about Irelands' status/path ? Do we disprove or prove whatever it is he said ?

don't know.

his studies took place at the beginning of XX century so probably not everything would be relevant at present, however I personally find it quite inspiring.

 

[hythorn]

on the subject of Spain. I was at a property fair in Warsaw over the weekend. By jingo the Spanish are active in Warsaw. A lot of Spanish property executives wandering around and a great deal of Spanish capital in new projects across the city.
Mr Murphy would be interested to know that there is a shed load of new projects planned for Wilanow, which might turn it from laid back leafy suburb into a bit of a concrete jungle. some of the new projects are starting to stray rather too close to the River Vistula's flood plain for my liking.
I was amazed by the number of new developments under construction throughout the city. it reminded me of London in the mid 80s

 

[mr murphy]

hiya horthorn,you have me a bit worried now,i was a bit taken back myself when i saw the amount of apartments being built there, the only thing i got some comfort from was the initial spacial plan and the hight restrictions because of the palace,i thought the river ran behind the palace is that correct,it did accour to me to look at flood panes as i was interrailing in 1997 and couldn't visit poland due to bad floods but i never looked,i also saw alot of spanish real estate agents last year at a murto property expo,couldn't believe they were selling spanish propertys to the poles given the difference in salarys.mr murphy

 

[markham]

Anybody out the buy from Polcon, Clock House refurb in Swidnica? would like to hear your experience