The unconstitutionality of Mr. A's conviction

it is not a crime to have sex with a child.
That's not true, the problem has been that the DPP continued to prosecute people under the lesser charge of statutory rape (which they knew to be flawed) because it was a sure thing as regards prosecution, rather than the more serious charges such as sexual assault, rape etc where they may have to actually prove the charge. There's a lot of scare-mongering about how our children are unprotected at present, but it's simply not true, dutch paedophiles will not be arriving here in busloads if legislation is not in place by the weekend, perhaps it would be better to take the time and prepare adequate legislation that will stand the test of time rather than react to the media scrum and draft something that will be thrown out in years to come.
 
Re: I am absolutely sickened

ubiquitous said:
Accepted, although it is easy to see why this wasn't done. Quite simply, any unilateral move by the government to lower the age of consent to 15 years for teenage girls would have been unpopular to say the least.



The AG does not have any powers to prosecute anybody.

The DPP's office is specifically above politics and the DPP is not answerable to politicians in terms of having to justify action or inaction in any particular case.

My questions remain:

1. Why on earth did the entire legislation have to fall if a small part of it was found to be unconstitutional?

2. If there is a valid reason for this, why have entire Finance Acts and other laws not similarly fallen by the wayside when elements thereof have been declared unconstitutional?
i know the AG doesnt prosecute but he should have informed the government of this in time for them to act, the mr "a" case was known about last year and legal gazettes referred to its potential unconstituitionality,similarly law reform commisions report should have been known about by relevant people.
 
Re: I am absolutely sickened

bearishbull said:
.. legal gazettes referred to its potential unconstituitionality..

I find this bit hard to believe - that a law 'wonk' like Michael McDowell would not have read that publication. When he's not a Government Minister, he's one of the big beasts of the Law Library. I'd be surprised if he wasn't on the mailing list for that publication.
 
"1. Why on earth did the entire legislation have to fall if a small part of it was found to be unconstitutional?

2. If there is a valid reason for this, why have entire Finance Acts and other laws not similarly fallen by the wayside when elements thereof have been declared unconstitutional?"

The entire legislation did not fall, and there is no such inconsistency. You can read the judgment of the Supreme court, but the relevant part of it simply states:

"I would allow the appeal and grant a declaration that s.1(1) of the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act, 1935, is inconsistent with the provisions of the Constitution."
Section 1(1) is the section which states:

"Any person who unlawfully and carnally knows any girl under the age of fifteen years shall be guilty of a felony, and shall be liable on conviction thereof to penal servitude for life or for any term not less than three years or to imprisonment for any term not exceeding two years"

I am a little intrigued by the phrase "unlawfully and carnally". It occurs to me that the state could have argued that use of the word "unlawfully" must have been intended to mean something, as opposed to being mere surplus verbiage. If you accept that it means something, what does it mean? Could it have been used to distinguish the situation of an "innocent" transgressor (i.e. one genuinely deceived about a girl's age, who it might be argued was not therefore acting "unlawfully") from someone who had a culpable\criminal knowledge? It's a big stretch, and almost certainly one which would not have passed the court's scrutiny, but I am a tad surprised the state didn't try it anyway. Truthfully, however, the state was on a hiding to nothing.

It is very easy at this remove to blame legislative lethargy, but part of the larger truth is that we get the politicans we deserve. While the legislation in question has been commented on before, it was almost always the subject of comment by lawyers in a legal\academic capacity. I don't think it was ever regarded as good ground for a political commentary. Who honestly believes that - absent the recent court case - any politican in this country would have found it a good career move to sponsor amending legislation? Who honestly believes that our gutter media would not have portrayed this as being a softening of position on child abusers? To the extent that this society of ours doesn't seem to facilitate reasoned, in depth debate on complex, nasty, awkward issues, we all share some of the blame.

Of course, to the extent that our prosecutors relied on prosecutions brought under a dubious law, they undoubtedly take some share of the blame. But- as a general principle - it is not fair to state that prosecutors or the state should have somehow known all along that the legislation was unconstitutional. You can't know such a thing until the legislation is challenged. I suppose you might say that our laws are entitled to a presumption of constitutionality, and those charged with upholding the law are entitled to proceed on that presumption.
 
Re: I am absolutely sickened

ubiquitous said:
ps, moderators, any chance of a meaningful title for this important discussion??? Thx.

My title was " I am absolutely sickened " which to me was far from meaningless.

That said point is taken.
 
Excellent post MOB.
If the government looses its appeal in the "A" case how will this new emergency legislation help? Surly those convicted under the now unconstitutional charge cannot be covered by the new legislation. Even if they are how can it be applied to their original trial?
If they are released can they be rearrested and recharged under the new law given that they are not being charged for the same offence twice (since the first offence no longer exists)?
What should be focused on now is how we keep the pedophiles in prison. We should avoid illogical emotional outbursts and mud slinging. Fix the problem and then attach the blame.
 
Excellent post indeed. ONe of the ealier posters expressed shock that 'they' could allow this to happen - the truth is 'we' are responsible for how this country is run. That is the responsibility of living in a democracy. 'We' must now solve the problem and as Purple said, avoid the useless mudslinging and get the job done right.
 
MOB said:
..it is not fair to state that prosecutors or the state should have somehow known all along that the legislation was unconstitutional. You can't know such a thing until the legislation is challenged. I suppose you might say that our laws are entitled to a presumption of constitutionality, and those charged with upholding the law are entitled to proceed on that presumption.

Excellent post, MOB, and one which brings some clarity. However, with respect to the above words, surely the fact that Michael McDowell himself wrote an article for the Sunday Indo around 1996 pointing out that the 1935 Act was constitutionally unsound means that he can hardly disclaim responsibility for the current mess.
 
Is it not the case that the government needed to await the exact ruling of the Supreme Court before it introduced any legislation to counter it?

Even if new legislation was in place could existing convictions not be appealed based on the constitutionality of the charge that they were convicted of?
 
Re: I am absolutely sickened

ubiquitous said:
On the other hand, if an individual is charged with a criminal offence, they are legally entitled to legal representation. There is a difference between the 2 scenarios.

UB, they might be entitled to legal representation just like I'm entitled to get a builder to build and extension - it doesn't mean that I can get a builder. My point being that if solicitors can on an individual and collective basis refuse to take a case against a fellow solicitor, why can the same solicitor(s) then feel obliged to represent someone who has pleaded guilty to rape? Are you saying that someone actually says "right Jimmy or Seamus - you have to represent this particular piece of dirt"?

Roy
 
Re: I am absolutely sickened

onekeano said:
Are you saying that someone actually says "right Jimmy or Seamus - you have to represent this particular piece of dirt"?

I'm not a legal expert, but this is my understanding. Perhaps one of the solicitors here might please elaborate?
 
Re: I am absolutely sickened

onekeano said:
UB, they might be entitled to legal representation just like I'm entitled to get a builder to build and extension - it doesn't mean that I can get a builder. My point being that if solicitors can on an individual and collective basis refuse to take a case against a fellow solicitor, why can the same solicitor(s) then feel obliged to represent someone who has pleaded guilty to rape? Are you saying that someone actually says "right Jimmy or Seamus - you have to represent this particular piece of dirt"?

Roy
I agree with you that it is wrong if solicitors will not take a case against each other but it doesn't not negate the need for a fair trial and in our adversarial system that requires a legal team that will do everything they can to get their client off.
I think that it is important that we remember where our current system grew from and the abuses that can and have happened when the rights of the accused are diluted. Principles such as habeas corpus and the presumption of innocence are central to the rights and freedoms that we enjoy and hard cases do not negate this. Our system is not perfect but situations where the accused cannot face their accuser should be rare and only allowed to occur in very special circumstances.
I an not a lawyer and have only a basic understanding of our legal system but even I can see that most of what has filled the airways and print media about this situation over the last few days has been ill thought-out reactionary juvenile rubbish.
 
Purple said:
Is it not the case that the government needed to await the exact ruling of the Supreme Court before it introduced any legislation to counter it?

Even if new legislation was in place could existing convictions not be appealed based on the constitutionality of the charge that they were convicted of?
no they could have changed the law years ago ,some people may still have gotten outta jail though due to the unconstitutionality but maybe less than now will.

once a person was convicted under the defective law alone there was no way of stopping their release and this would have been the case if a new law was introduced in say 2000,people convicted in previous year serving a few years would have been released.
more recently a law should have been ready to be passed by the dail the day the supreme court found the law unconstitutional.
 
Breaking news (no link, I just heard it on the radio) is that the State's appeal was successful, so 'Mr A' is to be returned to prison. Presumably he'll get the welcome he deserves...
 
Is it not the case that the government needed to await the exact ruling of the Supreme Court before it introduced any legislation to counter it?
I suspect the government had a fair idea of what exactly the supreme were going to decide earlier in the week.
 
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