so they are still getting their increments. oh for god sake. they are so pathetic. they are getting rises in a recessions and they are still complaining?
Here's one for a start. If you go further back in thread there's another post that describes public servants as "greedy and lazy". Needless, sweeping generalisations which contribute absolutely nothing to the debate and which the poster in question has failed to back-up with any evidence.
Can we move on from obssession with public servants, the weathers miserable and the ECB are about to raise interest rates, lets get back to the thread title and wallow in our collective misery
Indeed or even close the thread, which seems to have run its course.
Well said. Because due to human nature and the way of the world, as you pointed out earlier, there will never be 'equality' because we all aren't equal. I play guitar and sing, and I'd love to be up there on stage playing auritoriums all over the world just like Metallica and the Chilli Peppers, but I amn't equal to them in musical ability. This analogy can be applied to every aspect of life. We aren't, nor will we ever be, equal. We are individuals. Equality of opportunity is the fairest, level playing pitch we can manage. After that it is up to each of us to make the best it. And the rest of that argument I will save for another forum.Society should not strive for communist style equality; rather it should strive for equality of opportunity.
When times are good there is bonuses in the private sector that are not avalible to equilivent people in the public sector. .
This analogy can be applied to every aspect of life.
Spot on. Unfortunately too many in politics, the media and the PC brigade, are enamored with equality of outcome rather than of opportunity.Society should not strive for communist style equality; rather it should strive for equality of opportunity.
Not sure it's worth listening to. It takes them eight minutes to say 'shop around for a better mortgage & credit card rate, mind that overdraft now, claim your tax credits and shop around for insurance'.Personal finance expert Jim Aughney gives some tips on how to save money during an economic downturn.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0701/drivetime_av.html?2394125,null,209
Pure fiction, yet again. Bonuses do exist within the public sector, for many senior executives in the civil service, local authorities and some public bodies - remember the furore when Prof Drumm picked up a substantial bonus. But keep on making up stories about the public sector if it makes you feel good.Ever wonder why public sector workers do not get bonuses ? The unions wouldn't have it. They will not allow pay to be related to performance. So anyone who performs well in the public sector will not be rewarded with a bonus. Its their own fault.
Thanks for the clarification. It's funny how this point has flown right over the heads of the public sector bashing posters here on AAM who can't see the wood for the trees.in fairness, that has been the thrust of much of this week's media debate between the unions and business interests. Despite only being able to listen to radio for an hour or two yesterday, I heard several times that we have the second highest minimum wage in the EU. According to some, this is badly needed. According to others it damages our competitiveness.
If the cap fits....Please point out where comments “verging-on-racist bile and invective” have been posted.
Society should not strive for communist style equality; rather it should strive for equality of opportunity. I agree that more can be done in this area
Well said. Because due to human nature and the way of the world, as you pointed out earlier, there will never be 'equality' because we all aren't equal. I play guitar and sing, and I'd love to be up there on stage playing auritoriums all over the world just like Metallica and the Chilli Peppers, but I amn't equal to them in musical ability. This analogy can be applied to every aspect of life. We aren't, nor will we ever be, equal. We are individuals. Equality of opportunity is the fairest, level playing pitch we can manage. After that it is up to each of us to make the best it. And the rest of that argument I will save for another forum.
There is inequality but there is no "class war" in Ireland. That sort of rhetoric went out before the Second World War. Poverty is primarily a social problem in Ireland. I, and many of my friends, come from areas of social deprivation. We had about the same opportunities as other kids in our area and about the same as kids from average socio-economic backgrounds. If parents let their kids skip school, stay out late, neglect their education and generally behave like scumbags that has nothing to do with household income and everything to do with bad parenting. The same goes for bad diet and smoking. It is not the fault or responsibility of those who work hard and raise their children to be productive members of society that others fail in their duty to their children. I think that the state should use its resources to help the children of these bad parents to overcome the disadvantage that being raised by bad parents gives them but that has nothing to do with class wars, multinationals or any feeling of misplaced guilt that the smoked salmon socialists in the Labour Party feel.Hold your horses here, Purple . You told us earlier that the class war was over, and now you think that 'more can be done'. Make your mind up.
What sort of equality would you like to see? Do you think that people should not be free to do things that damage their health or prospects in the medium to long term? Beyond equality of opportunity what sort of equality would you look for?No-one mentioned 'communist style equality'. I know it suits your arguement to put two and two together to make 27, but let's stick to a bit of reality here.
“Johnny Blue” and fast food have more to do with it than class wars. You can avoid eating bad food, get exercise and not smoke no matter what occupational class you are in. By the way, what is an occupational class? Is it sort of labelling so beloved by socialists who seeks to trap people in their social strata or is it just more meaningless jargon that judges people based only on their income and address?Perhaps you could explain how the equality of opportunity applies to the households with a person with a long-term illness or disability that have double the risk of poverty? Perhaps you could explain how equality of opportunity applies those in the lowest occupational class whose risk of death is between 100% and 200% higher than those in the highest occupational class?
• For circulatory diseases it was over 120% higher
• For cancers it was over 100% higher
• For respiratory diseases it was over 200% higher
• For injuries and poisonings it was over 150% higher
Did they get an equal chance? Please try to avoid sounding like the Python luxury sketch in your answer.
I am faced with statistical evidence that some people don’t take care of themselves or teach their children to do so. But guess what, they are adults and choose to behave in that way. They have no one to blame but themselves. I smoke on occasion. If I get cancer from my bad habit it will be no one’s fault but mine. The same would apply if I drank too much or spent all my money in a bookie’s.When faced with the hard statistical evidence of the very real inequalities in Ireland today, Purple and shneak attempt to move the goalposts and position any attempt to address these inequalities as 'communism'. Readers should keep this in mind when considering the public sector bashing comments on this and other thread.
There is inequality but there is no "class war" in Ireland. That sort of rhetoric went out before the Second World War. Poverty is primarily a social problem in Ireland. I, and many of my friends, come from areas of social deprivation. We had about the same opportunities as other kids in our area and about the same as kids from average socio-economic backgrounds. If parents let their kids skip school, stay out late, neglect their education and generally behave like scumbags that has nothing to do with household income and everything to do with bad parenting. The same goes for bad diet and smoking. It is not the fault or responsibility of those who work hard and raise their children to be productive members of society that others fail in their duty to their children. I think that the state should use its resources to help the children of these bad parents to overcome the disadvantage that being raised by bad parents gives them but that has nothing to do with class wars, multinationals or any feeling of misplaced guilt that the smoked salmon socialists in the Labour Party feel.
What sort of equality would you like to see? Do you think that people should not be free to do things that damage their health or prospects in the medium to long term? Beyond equality of opportunity what sort of equality would you look for?
“Johnny Blue” and fast food have more to do with it than class wars. You can avoid eating bad food, get exercise and not smoke no matter what occupational class you are in. By the way, what is an occupational class? Is it sort of labelling so beloved by socialists who seeks to trap people in their social strata or is it just more meaningless jargon that judges people based only on their income and address?
Again, I'd be very interested in your explanation of how long-term illness or disability comes under the heading 'people don't take care of themselves'. Perhaps you subscribe to the [broken link removed]. It's a bit hard to keep yourself healthy when you can't afford the €80 per month perscription fees. It's a bit hard to keep yourself healthy when you don't have a warm coat, or a warm house.I am faced with statistical evidence that some people don’t take care of themselves or teach their children to do so. But guess what, they are adults and choose to behave in that way. They have no one to blame but themselves. I smoke on occasion. If I get cancer from my bad habit it will be no one’s fault but mine. The same would apply if I drank too much or spent all my money in a bookie’s.
Again I will state the blindingly obvious: We should not strive for equality. We should strive for equality of opportunity so that those who choose to better themselves are not held back by bias or lack of resources. We should not seek to provide a living to those who are capable of providing it for themselves (see my signature).
Look up. That's my point up there flying right over your head. Fault is not the issue here. It's not a question of who is at fault or who caused the disability or long-term illness. The issue is the failure of Government to create anything like equality of opportunity for people in such circumstances.1) Wheres your credible explanation ? Chernobyl/Sellafield/Overhead power lines/genetics etc ? How much of this is under government control. All I get from your style of writing is an offended tone as though we are expected to be mindreaders.
2) How is it the governments fault ? Unless you blame the government for not taking away their freedom. . . or for not implementing genetic engineering/enforced sterilisation...
Eh the ESRI is not the Government. It is a private, independent body. It does recieve some Government funding for some aspects of its work, but it is not the Government. I guess you didn't read beyond the title of the paper. I'll be happy to discuss the finer points when you've actually read it.So what ? Any government paper is going to seek to 'stigmatise' smoking. Calling it low class is only one way it is being done. The paper proves nothing.
Yes, there is a lot of ignorance flying round here. I was specifically referring to the Drugs Payment Scheme in my comment. The limit used to be in the region of €80 per month, and has now increased to [broken link removed]. I'd be very interested to hear how a family with one parent working in a typical low-skill role (warehousing, security, hygiene) and the other minding children with a cleaning job mornings/evenings for pin money can find €90 per month for prescriptions?Thats nonsense. Theres a government scheme whereby prescription costs are refunded above a certain amount regardless of income or means.
[broken link removed]. The Drug Payment scheme has been in operation for many years. The fact you mentioned the figure of €80 per month highlights your ignorance.
Just for the record, it was Purple's glib 'Johnny Blue' comment that brought up the issue of smoking. There is indeed a fairly well-established link between low income and smoking. You seem to belive that there is no poverty in Ireland. I'm sure that will be news to the approx 300,000 people deemed by the CSO to be living in consistent poverty. Source: [broken link removed]. The little match girl may well be outside the window. It's probably a bit harder to recognise her and find her, but she does still exist.Apparently if this 'class' of people are chain smoking (according to you) then since they can obviously afford so many expensive cigarettes; its' down to choice if they dont' wish to spend 10 euro on a thermal blanket. Or are they too lazy to go down to the local charity shop/health board and beg for a coat. Which is it ? Since you ignored my earlier questions I'll expect yet another fudge followed by a raft of outdated cliches.
Reality check, which century are you living in ? You appear to be harking back to a time when the welfare state was non existant. However even in those times there still existed charity. Is there a little match girl outside your window by any chance ?
So how prevalent is this ? And what is your solution ? Over the last 10 years I am pretty sure anyone who wanted a job could get one. Even drug addicts got jobs on building sites on Pearse Street (in Dublin) such was the demand for labour.
Families which have a culture of begging/unemployment are a special problem but I disagree that they won't have the wherewithal to scam some money off the system. I have never seen a gypsy without a jacket. Even the worst cases know what side their bread is buttered on. Drug addiction and crime (the solution of I steal the jacket and disregard the rights of others) is a separate issue and again is a choice made in free will with no lack of support if someone wishes to turn their back on it.
The state can only provide opportunitys; not impose them or provide people with a meaning for their lives. They have to find that meaning and purpose for themselves.
So now you are talking about equality of opportunity. In that I agree with you.Look up. That's my point up there flying right over your head. Fault is not the issue here. It's not a question of who is at fault or who caused the disability or long-term illness. The issue is the failure of Government to create anything like equality of opportunity for people in such circumstances.
I never suggested that there was no poverty in Ireland. I suggested that the root cause was more social than economicYou seem to belive that there is no poverty in Ireland. I'm sure that will be news to the approx 300,000 people deemed by the CSO to be living in consistent poverty. Source: [broken link removed]. The little match girl may well be outside the window. It's probably a bit harder to recognise her and find her, but she does still exist.
I was born in an area where third generation unemployment was common. I have friends who are the first in their family to have a job in 30 years so I know all about it. Your work in the school in Jobstown (which is laudable) lends weight to the opinion that the problem is primarily social.3rd generation employment does indeed exist. I did some work with a primary school in Jobstown as part of a programme to expose the kids to people who work, as they probably don't know anyone in their extended family who has a job.
Again I agree but funding should be directed toward making it as easy as possible for people to take care of themselves rather than toward the state taking care of them. For example the money the state will spend sending my children to 3rd level would be better spent providing a good income for students from poor backgrounds while they go to 3rd level. Imagine if a 18 year old from the school you went to in Jobstown received €100 on top of what he would get on the dole if he went to college (and passed his exams)? That would be money much better spent than allowing me to go on a few more family holidays over the next 10-15 years.The state has a long, long way to go in providing equality of opportunity for all its citizens.
I do not support cutting services to the most vulnerable but I do support the provision of services as long as delivery criteria remains as is. There is no fundamental link between privatising provision and creating a two-tier system.To get back to the R-word, the noises coming from Government, the response to recession will be to cut services from the most vulnerable citizens, while continuing to create a two-tier society by privatising more and more services.
Pure fiction, yet again. Bonuses do exist within the public sector, for many senior executives in the civil service, local authorities and some public bodies - remember the furore when Prof Drumm picked up a substantial bonus. But keep on making up stories about the public sector if it makes you feel good.
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