But the complete irony of what you are sayingg is that it was the PAYE smucks in the public/private sector that were paying 60% tax at the time while the fat cat bosses were sifting away the cash in off shore accounts.
How is this
irony?
That would mean overcrowded and delapadated schools, more old people on trollies, those on medical cardson huge waiting lists to see consultants, mental health services cut etc etc. You are happy with that?
Don't we already have these things? I said that
non-essential services could be cut but the choice was there to lay-off poorly performing staff either. Therefore, if senior civil servants decided it was better to cut essential services instead of non-productive staff it reflects poorly on their own ability and their own positions should be reviewed.
Thats what mindless speculation does.
If "mindless speculation" empowers good managers to bring companies through turbulent economic times then yay for mindless speculation I say!
So let business mindlessly exploit workers at the drop of a hat. Thats your solution? if you dont like being exploited and treated like dirt you know where the door is. That is the type of community you want your children living in?? Scary
I'd like my children to grow up in a country with jobs. I'd like my children to grow up in a country with low taxes and a government that spends within its means.
Aggreed but people on here are falling for the IBEC spin. I hope I am talking to proper business people here and not just poor brainwashed smucks working for soemone else. I can handle business owners advocating exploitation and crap conditions, but ordinary workers, it saddens me.
I pay about as much attention to "IBEC spin" as you do to the economic theories of Ludwig Von Mises. What saddens me is that it is 2008 and someone still feels the need to pepper their arguments with socialist paranoia about "fat cat bosses" and "ordinary workers". Also I don't think anyone - not even business owners - advocate "exploitation and crap conditions". Most businesses want to get the best from their employees, exploitation generally isn't the best method to do this.
Same kind of arguments were made during the industrial revolution as a means of exploiting workers. It required unity but eventually workers accross europe rallied and forced governments to improve workers conditions. You are not looking at this in a global context. Further exploitation will continue unless workers unite globally. I am not talking about a socialist Eutopia, just decent pay and condtions for people of all sectors
If European socialist workers want to improve conditions for workers in developing countries then they should change positions and advocate an immediate end to all EU subsidies and tariffs.
Where they get the oppurtunity multinationsals have and will contimue to exploit workers in the developing world. This is a fact. And you think otherwise your being nieve. Yes development is important but development that takes into account some basic decency and standards of social justice ... If someone does not fight for these rights for emerging countries they are not going to be given them.
As workers in the developing world save money, improve their education and standard of living they will demand better conditions and pay. As their productivity improves they will be rewarded with greater pay. Western trade unions dictating what is and isn't acceptable for this workers is neither appreciated nor productive. Think it through for a minute. Would Fruit of the Loom workers in Donegal in the late eighties have appreciated American trade unions opposing these factories on the basis they were being "exploited"? About as much as Moroccan workers would appreciate former Irish Fruit of the Loom workers intervening on their behalf now.
You may have some nieve view that unchecked global capitialism will solve the worlds problems. The reality over the last hundred years it that it has made winners out of a few nations while plunging the rest (billions of people) into poverty and misery.
This is not backed up by the facts. Global capitalism has greatly improved the lives of workers in all countries that have embraced it and disproportionately the poorest in those countries. I refer you to "In defence of global capitalism" by Swedish economist Johan Norberg, by way of reference. Look at how Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea and Ireland have developed by embracing globalisation.
Jimbob will you get over it please. Yes public sector workers recieve incremental credit and no, there is absolutly no chance that any public sector worker in their right mind is going to say they should be halted. You really need to get off the mindless public sector bashing, and move on to something else in relation to the cause of the recession.
I think incremental credits should be halted (and I work in the public sector) but I agree with you that they are not the cause of the recession nor the solution. However, it is symbolic as much as anything else. We all have to show a willingness to accept some pain.
It would appear I am not the only public sector worker who thinks so either.
It wouldn't be the end of the world for me if a "real" pay freeze was introduced but there isn't the remotest chance of this happening.
Substantial overtime payments, outdated working practices, top-heavy organisations and dubious agencies should be the target in terms of reducing the public sector pay bill - not the incremental pay of individuals.
Very true.
The problem with this is that you do not see the relationships that exist between government and business. Business influences government in a varity of ways, sometimes quite reasonably and other times to allow curruption and exploitation. This relationship is becoming more pronounced in every level, for example drug companies have a huge influence on the health policy and multinational IT companies in education. Now these companies do not have the health or education of ordinary people as thier primary motivation. So goverments can not be seen outside the context of the business community, they are interlinked.
It's funny you talk about the undue influence businesses can bring to governments when in this country the right of unions to dictate economic policy is put on a statutory footing.
If the workers in China had decent working conditions and were payed a fair wage according to thier own economy and had decent terms and conditions of employment then I have no problem buying the chineese produce.
You must accept then that Irish factories cannot compete with these wages and certainly cannot offer increased pay and jobs for life to their workers if they are to remain viable.
But frequently this is not the case. Of course people in the developing world will work for next to nothing and put up with conditions people in the west would not. Frequently multinationals set up in the developing world do not allow unions and do expolit workers and if these people do not like it they will just employ one of a hundred people waiting at the factory gate. A suituation like this makes it easy for these people suffer terrible exploitation by any standard. This is wrong.
Actually most frequently this is the case. Think about it. You set up a factory in a country where the average daily wage is €1. Offering €2 will ensure you get the absolute pick of the best workers in this country but make little impact on your bottom line (allowing you to expand, foster goodwill, have productive employees etc.). Yet you would probably still insist these workers are being exploited. While trade unions in the West are shouting loudly about shutting down factories in South-East Asia, workers in those factories are hoping they will continue to expand so their friends and families can get jobs there.
Short working day comment not withdrawn. Since when do public servants ever do unpaid unofficial overtime for example ?
I can vouch that I most assuredly do and so do many others. However, I agree with the thrust of your argument that the public sector should be reducing their conditions/pay to meet those of the private sector rather than blithely assuming it can work the other way around.