The R Word

Humdinger said:
"past performance is not indicative of future returns" .... while the history lesson is interesting, I struggle to see how it changes the reality of our economy becoming increasingly uncompetitive ..... central government and public services are part of the solution and like everyone else, need to trim some of the fat out of the system. We can no longer afford some of the flab that exists.... in the last week we have seen the silo'd menality of many of the players which does not bode well for a quick and flexible response to the hole we find ourselves in. We simply have a cost base in this country which is not sustainable.
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Looks like your attempt to drag this thread back on topic has failed :(
 
television said:
Where does curruption come from by and larger? from business wanting to bend the rules, to try to get around the laws of the land for their own greed.
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“Business” is not a homogenous entity. What you are talking about are people. Some people, both in business and in a personal capacity, will try to bend and/or break the rules. The prevalence of these activities depends on a number of factors ranging from legal deterrent, social acceptability and potential gain etc. People in business are no more or less moral or socially aware than those they employ.


television said:
Frequently leglislation is ignored by business where they can get away with it. Business has a responcibility to act morally, not just pay lip service to laws and bend them where possible.
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see above


television said:
That is not what she was arguing? Look at her post.
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Yes it was, look at her post.

television said:
There is a tendency to make straw men here and then break them down. It is really annoying. Lets keep this dissussion in context. we are talking about the origins of the movement for the betterment of workers rights brought about by worker orginisation since the agrivulutral revolution. It is irlivent to talk about the black death and the subsequent labour shortage and improvement in the remaining workers rights at that time and then make the assumption that this had any effect on the movement for reform 300 years later. It is stretching it to the extreme.
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What mattered was supply and demand. Just as it did as skill became increasingly important in the labour market of the 1920’s.


television said:
That is about the most vague and nonsencical comment I have ever heard. If you try to ake a very vague and broad statement hoping some of it is factual without having the slighest grasp of the facts then go head. I an not prepared to enter into a mindless discussion with someone not if full grasp of the facts.
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Here's some info on income level increase, with the counter arguements, between 1750 and 1850.
The drop in infant mortality rates during the industrial revolution is will known. Try Google.
The next time you think about trowing around insults try spending three minutes checking the facts first.
 
television said:
Actually if your going to be pedantic about it. its "can't".

Now Jimbob your loosing the smart a... stuff. Get back to loosing the central argument will you.

PS Capital I also.
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loosing???? ;)

I don't care about peoples spelling but this thread has gone completely off topic just like the other one on plans to help the economy and no offence Television but you are strongly involved in both. Can we get them back on topic.

I see consumer confidence has hit another all time low today, the ISEQ is at 2003 levels, manufacturing is at another low and the ISME survey is the gloomiest in 20 years. Another good day for the Celtic Tiger
 
Purple said:
“Business” is not a homogenous entity. What you are talking about are people. Some people, both in business and in a personal capacity, will try to bend and/or break the rules. The prevalence of these activities depends on a number of factors ranging from legal deterrent, social acceptability and potential gain etc. People in business are no more or less moral or socially aware than those they employ.
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No, but this is what we are talking about business workers and the relationship between the two. This is the specific context.

see above

Purple said:
“Yes it was, look at her post. What mattered was supply and demand. Just as it did as skill became increasingly important in the labour market of the 1920’s. .
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She/he suggested that the fact that there was a decrease in the supply of workers brought about about by the plauge had an effect on the improvements in workers conditions to a greater extent than worker action and unity did since the industrial revolution. This is a completly ridiculous argument. If you take a look at the context of the discussion and the previous posts this is the only fair conclusion as to what she was suggesting.

Purple said:
“Here's some info on income level increase, with the counter arguements, between 1750 and 1850.
The drop in infant mortality rates during the industrial revolution is will known. Try Google.
The next time you think about trowing around insults try spending three minutes checking the facts first.
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I have not argued that the population did not increase in Europe during the Industrial revolution. I am arguing specifically about how workers united accross europe to force governments to legislate incrementally to improve workers conditions. I am also arguing that this legislative change was at every corner held up and fought against by business.

Can you please stop building straw men.
 
Guys, we all need to lay off the personal stuff or this thread will be closed.
 
the iseq is in terrible shape. the US futures are down sharply today. the dow is 19.9% down , 20% signifies a bear market. if it stays down today then really the rest of the year is a washout in the markets. im short so doing quite nicely :)
 
I think we need people with business experience in the cabinet now, there seems to be an over representation of former teachers and lawyers in the cabinet, there is nothing wrong with this to an extent but hard business experience would be valuable, afterall in the eighties these people eventually got cabinet positions
 
joe sod said:
I think we need people with business experience in the cabinet now, there seems to be an over representation of former teachers and lawyers in the cabinet, there is nothing wrong with this to an extent but hard business experience would be valuable, afterall in the eighties these people eventually got cabinet positions
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Despite the swipes that they get from the media about long holidays and high pay politicians work very long hours in high-pressure jobs with no job security. Nobody in their right mind would become a TD.
 
Sunny said:
loosing???? ;)

I don't care about peoples spelling but this thread has gone completely off topic just like the other one on plans to help the economy and no offence Television but you are strongly involved in both. Can we get them back on topic.
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I suggest Jimbob started the spelling exercise.
 
apologies - but we all know the PS is a huge problem in this country. we cant sort it cos of the unions and people who think a pay freeze is a pay rise but not a huge pay rise. can we discuss the other factors? opinions on the present state of the credit crunch and stock market?
 
I am talking about the agricultural/industrial revolution 1750-1850. Black death has nothing to with it.
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The Black Death has everything to do with improvements in work conditions for workers.

I'm disputing your view that the greatest improvement in workers rights was during the 19th and 20th century - my view is that by far the greatest improvement in workers conditions took place after the Black Death - 14th century.

Up to this time, the workforce, which was mainly agricultural was in near slavery style conditions under the control of an overlord with no rights and not even allowed leave employment. The labour shortage created by the Black Death broke this system and gave workers the freedom to chose their own employers. Consequently employers had to improve wages and conditions in order to attract employees who were in short supply. The freedom to work for whoever you chose and not have you family bonded to an overlord must be the biggest breakthrough ever in this area.
 
csirl said:
The Black Death has everything to do with improvements in work conditions for workers.
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But has little to do with the movement for reform of workers rights and leglislation of the 19 century accross europe. I also suggest that by even your own logic you are stretching to the extreme the improvements in the rights of peasents after the black death. greater mobility perhaps(although accross eastern europe mobility decreased) rise in incomes relatively but still appaling conditions, as is testified by the famine conditions across much of europe in the 14 15 Centuries.
 
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