In my opinion, all involvement by the Catholic Church in public education should have ended ages ago.
I think for that to be fair, then all involvement in public schools by the Catholic Church should end immediately. If you then wanted your child to be educated in a Catholic Church you should then have to pay as per other religions.
The State should not be subsidising any minority religion. If people want to educate their children in a particular religion, any additional costs should be covered by the families concerned, not by the State.
It’s not purely an accident of birth as if some lucky people have pixie dust sprinkled over them at birth and they get born into a ‘rich’ family. Very few people in Ireland come from generations of wealth – most can trace back to rural backgrounds and/or relative poverty. But someone somewhere back in the family tree, maybe a parent, maybe a grandparent, decided to better themselves – by education or enterprise but nearly always through very hard work. They did this so that they, their children and their grandchildren could benefit from their hard work, and usually the next generations did better and better again, often through education. In my family, it was my grandfather and his siblings (poor rural) who took it in turns to work and put each other through college, encouraged by my great-grandparents who saw the value of education but couldn’t afford to pay for it. That sort of self-sacrifice just isn’t seen anymore – it’s all about entitlement and begrudgery.You're missing the fundamental inequity of a state-subsidised two-tier system, whereby some students get the benefit of smaller classes and better equipment, and others don't - simply due to an accident of birth.
but there isn’t anywhere near as much begrudgery about that because many of the vocal opponents of public money going into private education are quite happy to live with a comfy two-tier health system because they are benefiting from it.
Spot on. In my case it was my grandfather. There are many in Ireland who just don't seem to value hard work, and the people who work hard, at all. In fact, the dossers and wasters seem to be more highly valued. How can we ever be self sufficient as long as this attitude persists?It’s not purely an accident of birth as if some lucky people have pixie dust sprinkled over them at birth and they get born into a ‘rich’ family. Very few people in Ireland come from generations of wealth – most can trace back to rural backgrounds and/or relative poverty. But someone somewhere back in the family tree, maybe a parent, maybe a grandparent, decided to better themselves – by education or enterprise but nearly always through very hard work.
Spot on. In my case it was my grandfather. There are many in Ireland who just don't seem to value hard work, and the people who work hard, at all. In fact, the dossers and wasters seem to be more highly valued. How can we ever be self sufficient as long as this attitude persists?
But those of us who agree with your points need to be aware that begrudery is alive and kicking in Ireland,if you cant afford to pay for something,its usually someone else's fault and sure "God love you".
And the problem with making people pay the full economic cost is?I think it's no stretch to admit making people pay the full economic cost would be the equivalent of banning private education for all those except the very wealthiest.
Here's how far we go. The State should provide a decent quality education, health service, etc. If that State service isn't good enough for you, then you are very welcome to provide your own service at the full economic cost. It doesn't stop anyone from buying the better service. It just means they have to pay for that service.In any case the issue is that the average citizen already pays for education, old age pensions and healthcare (amongst other things) that they might universally hope to benefit from.
"Two tier system" has been used as a toxic term by successive socialist commentators, but how far do we go with a one-tier system?
Education - Should no parent be able to direct their means to provide their child with a better education without kissing goodbye to the already substantial amount they contribute towards general education costs through taxation?
Healthcare - Should no individual be able to direct their means towards providing better healthcare for their families.
Retirement provision - Should no individual be able to prudently provide for a better standard of living for themselves in retirement without losing entitlement to what are currently universal retirement benefits?
If your answer to any/all of the above is yes, you are telling individuals that they have no right to direct their means as they see appropriate. Rather they must rely on the state to decide on an appropriate distribution of resources towards education, health, social protection, etc and accept that whatever the state cannot provide them with (based on the government's or even the EU/IMFs views on what the priorities are), they cannot have.
This is a very dangerous road to go down. Surely the roofer should have had proper safety provisions in place, so he shouldn't get anything. And any smoker who gets ill, they shouldn't get anything. And anyone who is a bit overweight or whose BMI is over 26, they shouldn't get anything. If you want to start playing the blame game, where does it stop?For example: I don't think that a boy racer who stole a car and wrapped it around the lamp post and killed somebody in the process should receive the same level of disability and benefits as a roofer who fell off the roof in his line of work.
What kind of protection are you expecting?We can all play dumb and pretend that people over-claiming benefits or claiming while working for cast are purely fictional and only an excuse or the rest to complain but I can supply at least five names of abusers at a drop of a hat. However, there is not protection offered (as far as I am aware) for doing so, so I keep my mouth shut and rage internally.
I don't know a lot about how Protestant denominations have been treated, so I can't really comment on the broad issue. But I'm curious as to how far this could be pushed - should the same deal that applies to Protestant schools also apply to Jewish schools, or Muslim schools, or Pastafarian schools?Fair enough, although I disagree strongly. The various Protestant denominations have been treated shamefully in this State since independence, and hence their numbers have dwindled alarmingly. The existence of Protestant faith schools has helped arrest this decline to some extent. The least the State can do is to look after its minorities. In my opinion, to do otherwise would be a shameful abandonment of any pretence to pluralism in Ireland, all for a minor cost saving.
It's not about begrudgery. It really is an accident of birth. I know that many people work hard to build up their financial status, and fair play to them. But for two children, born on the same day in the same hospital, it is very much down to an accident of birth as to what level of healthcare they will get, and what level of education they will get, and whether they will walk into a nice cushy job in the family firm etc etc. There is no good reason why any child in Ireland should not get a basic decent education - and this is certainly not happening across the board today.But on the public/private education:
Big +1 to all of DerKaiser’s post #39
It’s not purely an accident of birth as if some lucky people have pixie dust sprinkled over them at birth and they get born into a ‘rich’ family. Very few people in Ireland come from generations of wealth – most can trace back to rural backgrounds and/or relative poverty. But someone somewhere back in the family tree, maybe a parent, maybe a grandparent, decided to better themselves – by education or enterprise but nearly always through very hard work. They did this so that they, their children and their grandchildren could benefit from their hard work, and usually the next generations did better and better again, often through education. In my family, it was my grandfather and his siblings (poor rural) who took it in turns to work and put each other through college, encouraged by my great-grandparents who saw the value of education but couldn’t afford to pay for it. That sort of self-sacrifice just isn’t seen anymore – it’s all about entitlement and begrudgery.
I don't know of any school that includes foreign trips in the basic fee. There is a big difference between a €500 VC and a €5k fee, or a €25k as it should really be.There are plenty of parents with children in the public system paying for grinds, foreign language trips, sports, music lessons etc. all the while benefiting from the public system (and there is a true accident of birth with this if you happen to live near one of the few really excellent public schools) – why is that okay when private schools basically do away with the need for many of these things for one all-in fee? Between the grinds that many parents have to pay for to compensate for at least a couple of poor teachers per school year and the ‘voluntary contributions’ (one local school near me has a €500 VC which is aggressively pursued), there is often little difference between costs at a private school and costs at a public school for a committed parent willing to make financial sacrifices to help their child.
Personally, I'd have exactly the same view on healthcare - full economic cost for private patients.And as DerKaiser pointed out above, this is the exact same tax/subsidy/’paying for extras’ situation that you see in private health care but there isn’t anywhere near as much begrudgery about that because many of the vocal opponents of public money going into private education are quite happy to live with a comfy two-tier health system because they are benefiting from it.
Because of the quality of teachers? Or poor parenting? Or what is the reason for this? We have free education from primary to third level here, there is no reason why everyone wouldn't have the same education.There is no good reason why any child in Ireland should not get a basic decent education - and this is certainly not happening across the board today.
I agree. I've always thought of health insurance as a con, just an extra tax based on fear. We spend over 20bn a year on a health service for 3.5million people - health insurance shouldn't be required for a first class service with the money we currently spend.We might find distinct improvements in the quality of health and education services if less people have access to private facilities.
For the record, I pay private health insurance at the moment, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility of paying private school fees in the future (mainly because I live just round the corner from a private school) - but I would still support any proposal to ensure that those who use those services pay the full economic cost. We might find distinct improvements in the quality of health and education services if less people have access to private facilities.
I don't know a lot about how Protestant denominations have been treated, so I can't really comment on the broad issue.
Well here’s the good news; they already do. They pay most of it indirectly through taxation and then they pay the balance directly through fees. Then on top of that consider that the school they send their children to is not being fully funded by the state so in effect those parents are subsidising the public system.For the record, I pay private health insurance at the moment, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility of paying private school fees in the future (mainly because I live just round the corner from a private school) - but I would still support any proposal to ensure that those who use those services pay the full economic cost. We might find distinct improvements in the quality of health and education services if less people have access to private facilities.
Just to add, I think the same should apply to private health insurance. Make those who want it pay the full costs. The result would be that 95% of people (including a lot of people from the voting constituencies) would have to go public and I'm sure standards would improve quickly then!
I'm with Complainer on parents paying the full cost of private education with no state subsidy of any kind. The main reason is that private schools, like any other private members club, decide on and limit their members, so I don't think they should receive state funding of any kind. The public system is open to all.
because you don't have a choice to go to the nice well-run school in the next parish/village.
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