The Lisbon vote

lightswitch said:
Ceist, do you consider yourself to be one of the masses or are you that bit better than the rest of us? Putting things to the masses by the way is the fundamental essence of democracy! The alternatives are not appealing!
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What's not appealing about a representative democracy? You live in one!
 
Purple said:
I don’t like referenda. I think that they are little removed from mob rule.
This referendum typifies what they are a bad idea.
A 75% majority of both houses and a signature from the President should be what is required to change the constitution.
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Ceist Beag said:
so-crates I agree about your points on the campaign but the problem with an election such as this is that for every 1 educated voter who has spent time getting to know what they will be voting on there are another 3 (possibly more!) voters who don't listen to debates, read up on it, or bother doing anything to educate themselves on it other than read a few headlines, posters or listen to the likes of Joe Duffy and then go with whichever scenario sounds most convincing. Course you could probably say that about most elections but on one as complex as this I think it's asking for trouble putting it to the masses.
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I do understand where you are coming from but still I disagree. The people who choose to vote do so with the intention of stating their understanding and prejudices, howsoever achieved. Their opinion is still valid and they have chosen to vote with some care (even if not with great penetration in their comprehension or discretion in their sources or opinion informers). A disagreeable result for the government on this referendum will reflect directly on the respective yea and nay campaigns, probably more so than on the substantive issue at the heart of them. Especially as a result of the complexity of the change (we are not voting for or against the treaty per se)
Like I said the approach to the referendum by the Yes side, again in particular by the government, appeared high-handed and ill-judged,off-putting for many, distinctly offensive to some. The No campaign was fervent and evocative, if wide-ranging and particularly silly in some instances. The vote was there for the taking, the campaign determines who takes it, particularly with a large floating vote.
 
lightswitch said:
Ceist, do you consider yourself to be one of the masses or are you that bit better than the rest of us?
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Where did I say I was better than anyone else? :confused: If you mean do I consider I've spent some time reading up on this and trying to educate myself on it before voting then yes I believe I have. By putting yourself into a group of "rest of us" are you implying you did not? And do you honestly believe some hairdresser voting to prevent her son fighting for Europe against Iraq has really spent time researching the basis for this fear in the treaty?
 
Ceist Beag said:
And do you honestly believe some hairdresser voting to prevent her son fighting for Europe against Iraq has really spent time researching the basis for this fear in the treaty?
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And do you really believe the vast majority of people voting yes have spent any considerable time researching the benifits??

And "some hairdresser" has every right to her/his opinion. Or do you want people to sit an examination on the treaty before they are allowed to vote?
 
redstar said:
and the alternative is that in a representative democracy our elected govt makes such decisions on our behalf
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This is a referendum to decide should our constitution be altered. Our representitive democracy allows/insists on this.
 
television said:
This is a referendum to decide should our constitution be altered. Our representitive democracy allows/insists on this.
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actually (and sorry if this has been answered earlier in the thread) could someone tell me what in OUR constitution will be altered as opposed to whats in the treaty - I'd like to see the actual amendment as a result of this being passed, if it is..
 
I voted yes for a number of reasons

Firslty, I detest with a passion the majority of those campaigning for a no vote. If they are not the purveyors of a defunct political idealogy(Marxism), then they are incapable of saying anything other then No(Patricia McKenna) or have the blood of thousands on their hands

But I did actually try to get over my prejudicies and try to look objectively at the Treaty. My conclusions???

I actually have no problem with us loosing a commissioner for a few years. Reality is that there are more countries then commissioners and it is only fair that others have their turn.

I found I have no problem with some privitisation of public services. I am fed up with incompetent civil servants who cannot be sacked getting away with incompetence. Mrs Sox gave birth last year and suffered for 30 minutes because a mid wife did not understand how an epidural machine worked properly. Behaviour like that doesn't happen in the private sector because that mid wife would have been sacked. Imagine how many bureaucrats would be sacked in the HSE if it was run along commercial lines

I have no problem with Ireland giving up some of it's neutraility. The concept of neutrality is often put forward as if it is some sort of "holy, sacred" belief. The reality is that there is a time and a place to be neutral and a time and a place when it is the right thing to stand up and fight. It is to this nations undying shame that we stayed neutral in WW2, that we did not stand up and fight the evil that was Nazism and concentration camps and stood by and watched 6 million jewish people die and instead commisserated with the Germans when Hitler died, because we were neutral. And who knows, maybe a time will come when we need someone to stand up for us, would anyone rush to our aid if we aren't prepare to rush to their

Lastly, Europe has been good for us, very good for us and this country would be well and truely f..ked if it weren't for it. So there might be a cost for us if we vote yes, so what?

There are 2 kinds of people in this world, those who are prepared to get up and give something back to their community and those who sit behind closed doors, never giving anything back and just take take take. Lisbon is asking us to give a little back, it's the right, proper and decent thing to do. I'm proud I voted Yes
 
television said:
And all the evidence from private systems world wide suggests that it leads to an devide of access between those who can afford to pay and those who cant.
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What evidence? The French medical system is heavily privatised and the largest hospital in Sweden is listed on the stock exchange. Would you suggest these are poor models to emulate?


television said:
And "some hairdresser" has every right to her/his opinion. Or do you want people to sit an examination on the treaty before they are allowed to vote?
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And if I told you I was going to vote No but then changed my mind because some bloke down the pub told me he heard everybody in Ireland was going to get a free Mini-Cooper from the German government if the treaty was passed, you'd say that was score one for democracy?

It is impossible to assume everyone voting is in a position to study the treaty carefully, leaving the whole thing wide open to scaremongering on both sides. Including yourself with allegations of sinister Mr. Burns-type industrialists dictating our health policy if we vote Yes.

That's why I agree with the other posters that these decisions should (like all other EU countries) be decided by our elected representatives.

Mpsox said:
There are 2 kinds of people in this world, those who are prepared to get up and give something back to their community and those who sit behind closed doors, never giving anything back and just take take take. Lisbon is asking us to give a little back, it's the right, proper and decent thing to do. I'm proud I voted Yes
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A truly excellent post. If I hadn't already swung around the Yes side in recent weeks that post may very well have won me over.
 
MugsGame said:
Good, because we already got that when we signed up to the Nice Treaty.
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Exactly! I wonder if there is a No vote today, will Libertas be around to explain themselves when, under the fabled status quo, we lose our commissioner to rotation as provided for under the Nice Treaty? I suspect not.
 
room305 said:
What evidence? The French medical system is heavily privatised and the largest hospital in Sweden is listed on the stock exchange. Would you suggest these are poor models to emulate?
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The french heatlh care system is free at the point of access for all and where people do pay there is various rebate systems.

There is plenty of evident for the fact that there is a great difference between the type and quality of health care in America between those who can afford to pay and those who cannot.

One swallow does not make a summer and one private hospital does not make the swedish health system privatised.


room305 said:
And if I told you I was going to vote No but then changed my mind because some bloke down the pub told me he heard everybody in Ireland was going to get a free Mini-Cooper from the German government if the treaty was passed, you'd say that was score one for democracy?
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Very little I can argue against that??????????

I
room305 said:
t is impossible to assume everyone voting is in a position to study the treaty carefully, leaving the whole thing wide open to scaremongering on both sides. Including yourself with allegations of sinister Mr. Burns-type industrialists dictating our health policy if we vote Yes.
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room305 said:
That's why I agree with the other posters that these decisions should (like all other EU countries) be decided by our elected representatives
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The complete contradiction in your point here is that our democratic structures were decided upon by elected representitives. these structures mean that a referendum is constitutionally necessary if there is a proposed ammemendent to the constitution as is the case in this situation now. Other countries in europe have developed different constitutional arrangements.

As a for the Mr bURNS COMMENT come up with some original material.
 
MPsox

Although I disaggree with a lot of what you say except for the irish responce to the naziS I enjoyed your last post.

However if you think there is not examples of extereme incompetence in a privatised health care system your mistaken. One of the biggest areas of litigation in America is Health related issues.
 
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