The Lisbon vote

Was anyone listening to Newstalk this am, there was an "independant" european correspondant discussing the referendum and that the EU officials are surprised that the No campaign is really making headway, he was saying that if a No vote won that there was a feeling that we could have to leave the EU....!!!!
 
michaelm said:
Anyway that's an aside, the matter at hand is whether we want to change our constitution allowing for the ratification of the Lisbon treaty and agreeing that our constitution can not prevent any laws, acts or measures being put into force if they are necessitated by our membership of the new EU, even if they would otherwise be deemed by our Supreme Court to be unconstitutional.
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Aggreed and a fair point.
 
csirl said:
There isnt a small bunch of Mr. Burns style evil people who own most multinationals and meet regularly to decide how to screw ordinary people.
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Perhaps not but we do have



And im sure mr burns is in the american version. Or maybe the CEO of Enron:)
 
TV you keep talking about privitisation, it is privatisation. Just a bit of education.
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This is a debate about the lisbon treaty why do you insist on being personal?

Just a bit of education
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By the way with grammer like above I dont think your in any position to give anyone "a bit of education" on the English Languege.
 
What are the odds down the line that our children could be drafted into the european super power army?
 
Well if this thread has taught us anything at all, it's what our self-professed specialists in the field of education do to fill in the long,lazy summer months.

(And it's not practising spelling.)
 
Hi - I guess I am quoting what I heard - he was introduced as an independant comentator - and to be honest I have found the Lisbon debate on Newstalk fair..
 
ashambles said:
Well if this thread has taught us anything at all, it's what our self-professed specialists in the field of education do to fill in the long,lazy summer months.

(And it's not practising spelling.)
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Lets stick to the debate not try insulting people.

self-professed specialists
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If you are a doctor you call yourself a doctor. if you are a teacher you are in education etc.
 
pinkyBear said:
Was anyone listening to Newstalk this am, there was an "independant" european correspondant discussing the referendum and that the EU officials are surprised that the No campaign is really making headway, he was saying that if a No vote won that there was a feeling that we could have to leave the EU....!!!!
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Hmmm, don't remember France or Holland being asked to leave the EU after their NO to the original version of the constitution.
 
Interesting perspectives from the Wikipedia pages dealing with the French & Dutch referenda in 2005 on the EU Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_referendum_on_the_European_Constitution

The possible consequences of a "No" vote were highly debated in France before the referendum, and are now a matter of keen speculation across Europe. Proponents of the Constitution, including President Chirac, have claimed that France's standing in Europe has been considerably weakened.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005
As the referendum approached, many "Yes" campaigners began to predict defeat, and some even expressed relief after the French rejection of the treaty, taking the view that this would prevent the Netherlands from being the first or only country to obstruct the course of ratification, even though they also expressed dismay that the French result had given the "No" campaign greater legitimacy and acceptance, and had suggested to the public that the Netherlands' standing in Europe would not be significantly damaged by a "No" vote, with some going as far as saying that the Netherlands would look like a fool in front of the rest of Europe.
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Questions and Answers last night - i'm even more confused after watching that. How can elected politicans have absolute, total disagreement over a document? I understand that people can have a difference in opinion, but this is a document that has been written for all to read (whatever about a difficult read).
How can one side say it will NOT affect the corporate tax and the other say that it WILL.
I'm lost.
 
I was going to vote yes but after the French Foreign Ministers threats and the Governments reluctance to tell him to keep his mouth shut, I am thinking of changing my mind. Childish I know!! Whether this gets passed or not, I am grateful for the chance to have a say in the matter. I can't understand why there isn't more uproar in Europe over not having the same opportunity. I see some guy in the UK is trying to presuade the High Court that there should be a judicial review into the decision not to hold a referendum. Interesting to see how that goes.
 
Are people seriously suggesting we could have referenda in 27 countries and not run into problems where the population just voted out of sheer bloody-mindedness to give their government a kicking for reasons not to do with the issue in question? Or for some other particular reason peculiar to that country? If that's the only way we could proceed we might as well scrap the idea of the EU altogether. Just what is wrong with representative democracy and ratification through parliament? Referenda for EU treaties in a union of less than 10 states might be manageable but 27 and rising just wouldn't work.
 
csirl said:
What is "big business"? You give the impression that there is a madcap "stonecutters" conspiracy out there.

Behind what you call "big business" are people - employees earning a living and shareholders, many of whom are ordinary people or pension funds paying ordinary retired people. There isnt a small bunch of Mr. Burns style evil people who own most multinationals and meet regularly to decide how to screw ordinary people.
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Agreed.

csirl said:
Though, one thing did strike me concerning the Yes side argument that multinationals are in favour of a Yes vote. The argument being made by the Yes side is that because Irish based multinationals are in favour, then the EU-wide corporation tax must not be on the horizon. This may not be correct. The multinationals could be in favour of a Yes vote and EU-wide corporation tax. The reason being that at the moment, Ireland is the only show in town for multinationals. If they want an advantage in trading in the EU, they have to be based in Ireland - if they are based elsewhere, they put themselves at a disadvantage vis a vis competitors who are based in Ireland. However, if there is an EU wide corporation tax, then this advantage/disadvantage of locating or not locating in Ireland is neutralised. They can locate where ever they want. It enables them to chose a location that is closer to the bulk of their customers than Ireland or one where the workforce or raw materials are more readily available. Ireland loses out big time in this scenario. The counter argument to this is that they will make less profits if they have to pay higher corporation tax. Not true, they can simply jack up prices to compensate for the higher taxes. With an EU wide corporation tax, they cannot be undercut by a competitor with a lower tax rate and due to the EUs closed market, they cannot be undercut by non-EU based companies. The vast majority of big companies would prefer to be judged in the market place solely by the quality and price of their goods and services with tax rates being a non issue.
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Many EU countries have lower corporation tax than us. The notion that the EU will gang up on us and we will have to fight them all by ourselves is laughable.
 
Nemesis said:
Are people seriously suggesting we could have referenda in 27 countries and not run into problems where the population just voted out of sheer bloody-mindedness to give their government a kicking for reasons not to do with the issue in question? Or for some other particular reason peculiar to that country? If that's the only way we could proceed we might as well scrap the idea of the EU altogether. Just what is wrong with representative democracy and ratification through parliament? Referenda for EU treaties in a union of less than 10 states might be manageable but 27 and rising just wouldn't work.
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The point is that the Frech and Dutch Government gave their people the chance to vote on the EU Constitution. The UK government promised one. They didn't get the vote the they wanted so they came up with this treaty which as everyone accepts is the constitution with a bit of window dressing and suddenly the rights of these people to vote on the same issues is gone. Thats not democratic. At least we get to vote. If I was a French or Dutch voter, I would be vey annoyed that the right that was afforded to me previously is now taken away from me.
 
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