The Irish Times doesn't know what Neoliberalism means

[time to plan]

Given out tax system and our very generous welfare system , particularly for those on long term welfare, which is supported by both FF and FG I'd like to know what you think makes either Party right of centre by European or American standards.
I'm generally in favour of our taxation and welfare system so I'm not coming from a place of criticism. I'm just wondering what measure you'd use to place either FF or FG on the right economically.
FG policies include free GP access, increasing funding for Asylum seekers and replacing the Direct Provision structure, increasing funding for education, increasing funding for health and borrowing to sustain current expenditure. These are all policies of the socialist/populist left. They have removed more people from the tax net and increased welfare payments. I don't agree with some of those policies but I certainly can't see anything right-wing in there.

Because you're only looking at part of the picture. You're ignoring the other parts like very low Corporation and big business funding. Also you say that the policies you mention are all policies of the socialist/populist left, but they're not exclusively of the socialist /populist left. Free GP access is a policy of the UK Conservative Party.

But my point isn't really that I think FG is centre right and you don't so I'm right and you're wrong. It's a difference of opinion. That's fine.

My point is that your statement...

There is no Party that could even be described as right of centre, except by those on the far left or those that are delusional.

... is the statement of someone who is on the far right or delusional.

 

[cremeegg]

As it happens I think coincidentally that London again provides the best benchmark, the average UK administration is dead centre. We need 2 other calibration points and we also need to decide on direction - let us say Right is in the positive direction and vice versa. I will put the average French admin on -10 and the average US admin on +10.
So I would put Ireland on average at about -12. But if FG were in majority power I would think it would go to about +5.

Skipping over the view that sees everything British as the default.

How can you describe Irish economic as to the left of French. Looking at tax to GDP, probably the best single statistic by which economic policy can be judged in terms of left/right France 45% Ireland 20%, according to the OECD in 2020

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-france.pdf

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Skipping over the view that sees everything British as the default.

How can you describe Irish economic as to the left of French. Looking at tax to GDP, probably the best single statistic by which economic policy can be judged in terms of left/right France 45% Ireland 20%, according to the OECD in 2020

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-france.pdf

There may be an element of leprechaun economics there but they are surprising figures an at variance with the message in this report.
Key figures are as follows:
Income tax take on low income earners:
Ireland 16.3% France 22.5% UK 19.1%
Income tax take on high income earners:
Ireland 35.5% France 33.2% UK 29.5%

These suggest my calibration is thereabouts: UK on zero, France to the left on -10 and Ireland further left again at -12.
As to British being the default - it wasn't I who put London at the centre of the planet at zero longtitude.
Can you really argue that mileage should be measured in kilometres?
Or that when we talk about a hot day we mean temperatures in the 80s?

 

[Purple]

Because you're only looking at part of the picture. You're ignoring the other parts like very low Corporation and big business funding. Also you say that the policies you mention are all policies of the socialist/populist left, but they're not exclusively of the socialist /populist left. Free GP access is a policy of the UK Conservative Party.

But my point isn't really that I think FG is centre right and you don't so I'm right and you're wrong. It's a difference of opinion. That's fine.

My point is that your statement...



... is the statement of someone who is on the far right or delusional.

The UK is the biggest tax haven in the world.
France has a lower effective corporation tax on their top companies than us. It was FF who reduced corporation tax for manufacturing and export companies to 12.5% and a Labour minister who reduced it to 12.5% for all companies. Are Labour right of centre in your world? The Shinners are also supporters of our low rate. Are they right of centre?

The UK’s NHS was set up by Labour and outside of Covid the Tories have generally not supported it anywhere near as much as FG and other left of centre parties have supported the HSE.

I just don’t see any right of centre policies from FG.

 

[Purple]

As to British being the default - it wasn't I who put London at the centre of the planet at zero longtitude.

No, they did.

Can you really argue that mileage should be measured in kilometres?

Yes, of course distance should be measured in kilometres. When I’m in the UK their speed limit signs seem so old fashioned.

Or that when we talk about a hot day we mean temperatures in the 80s?

I think of temperature in Celsius.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

No, they did.

The Greenwich Meridian was chosen as the Prime Meridian of the World in 1884. Forty-one delegates from 25 nations met in Washington DC for the International Meridian Conference. By the end of the conference, Greenwich had won the prize of Longitude 0º by a vote of 22 to 1 against (Ireland) with 2 abstentions (France and Brazil).

Yes, of course distance should be measured in kilometres. When I’m in the UK their speed limit signs seem so old fashioned.

I recently had cause to trade in a car. The dealers kept asking me the mileage. Admittedly they wanted the answer in Kms.
One often hears of men being described as “six footers”. ”183 centimetrers” doesn’t have the same ring to it.

I think of temperature in Celsius.

Well I still prefer temperatures in the 80s to in the “27 to 30s”. Admittedly sub zero temps is more natural than sub 32.

But on topic, FG are left of the British Tories but right of British Labour ( 4 day week, free access to health services at point of delivery, complulsory worker ownership of companies, not big proponents of getting up early in the morning) if you will forgive the British benchmarks.

 

[cremeegg]

There may be an element of leprechaun economics there but they are surprising figures an at variance with the message in this report.

The report you cite refers to Income Tax only, the OECD report I quoted refers to Total Tax take. How many tax heads did you have to check through to find one that partially supported your view?

One often hears of men being described as “six footers”. ”183 centimetrers” doesn’t have the same ring to it.

The SI benchmark for tall is 180cm, which from where I'm standing, is much more logical.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The report you cite refers to Income Tax only, the OECD report I quoted refers to Total Tax take. How many tax heads did you have to check through to find one that partially supported your view?

I'm always just a bit suspicious of national figures as multi-national leprechaun accounting could be afoot. But personal income tax take is more objective and more informative on how progressive the tax system might be.

The SI benchmark for tall is 180cm, which from where I'm standing, is much more logical.

I suppose so - a bit like the darts - he's One Hundred and Eighty!

 

[cremeegg]

I'm always just a bit suspicious of national figures as multi-national leprechaun accounting could be afoot. But personal income tax take is more objective and more informative on how progressive the tax system might be.

Are you suggesting that the figures for Income Tax take are more objective than the figures for Total tax take. I have not heard that suggested before, seems strange.

I let you off with the leprechaun accounting remark before but maybe its better to go through that too. In 2015 Irish GDP increased by 34% Paul Krugman called this leprechaun economics.

As a slur on Irish statisticians this was nonsense, Irish GDP really did increase by that amount.

The increase was largely driven by profit shifting and not increased economic activity, but those profits were shifted to Ireland, and became subject to Irish corporation tax.

Krugmans scepticism was based on seeing a large increase in GDP which he believed was not reflective of an increase in economic activity. He was correct so far as that goes, what he didn't bother to understand was that Irish GDP figures include the results of economic activity recorded in Ireland which involves activity which may be based in many other countries. A product manufactured in China using American IP sold to a customer in Spain. Recorded in Ireland because Apple's European HQ is in Ireland.

Every other country in the world records GDP on the same basis. Because Ireland has been so successful in attracting corporate HQs our GDP includes a high level of activity which occurs elsewhere.

Using the term leprechaun economics simply means 'I don't understand the particular structure of Irelands GDP', or perhaps in Krugman case ' I can't pass up the chance to make a smart remark and maybe coin a new phrase' even if it is meaningless.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Are you suggesting that the figures for Income Tax take are more objective than the figures for Total tax take. I have not heard that suggested before, seems strange.

As I understand it the Income Tax figures were simply taking a level of income and applying our income tax and USC rules. Which are totally objective things. Ok maybe people much better off than a mere duke have ways to shelter income tax but I have certain confidence that these are a fair comparator of that they purport to demonstrate - the progressiveness of direct taxation in Ireland.

I let you off with the leprechaun accounting remark before but maybe its better to go through that too. In 2015 Irish GDP increased by 34% Paul Krugman called this leprechaun economics.

As a slur on Irish statisticians this was nonsense, Irish GDP really did increase by that amount.

The increase was largely driven by profit shifting and not increased economic activity, but those profits were shifted to Ireland, and became subject to Irish corporation tax.

Krugmans scepticism was based on seeing a large increase in GDP which he believed was not reflective of an increase in economic activity. He was correct so far as that goes, what he didn't bother to understand was that Irish GDP figures include the results of economic activity recorded in Ireland which involves activity which may be based in many other countries. A product manufactured in China using American IP sold to a customer in Spain. Recorded in Ireland because Apple's European HQ is in Ireland.

Every other country in the world records GDP on the same basis. Because Ireland has been so successful in attracting corporate HQs our GDP includes a high level of activity which occurs elsewhere.

Using the term leprechaun economics simply means 'I don't understand the particular structure of Irelands GDP', or perhaps in Krugman case ' I can't pass up the chance to make a smart remark and maybe coin a new phrase' even if it is meaningless.

I apologise at any offence taken at the leprechaun reference though one should not stereotype leprechauns as a sub intelligent species.
But yes it is all about the GDP thing and multi-national tax management (to be kind). We know that Apple paid little or no tax, so one might say that the tax take on multi national corporates is around 5% (max 12.5% of course). It only needs a big distortion on this front to give a misleading impression (though factually correct) of the extent of Ireland's tax take as a % of GDP. Now in any ordinary situation this would be seen as right wing - supporting big business, but that would be a misinterpretation, it is simply Ireland being cute hoors and SF/IRA are committed to pursuing that policy, and you don't say they are right wing do you?

The Greenwich Meridian was chosen as the Prime Meridian of the World in 1884. Forty-one delegates from 25 nations met in Washington DC for the International Meridian Conference. By the end of the conference, Greenwich had won the prize of Longitude 0º by a vote of 22 to 1 against (Ireland) with 2 abstentions (France and Brazil).

Nobody spotted my little sleight of hand there. Of course Ireland was supressed from having a vote in such international fora. But I am sure we would have voted against anyway and sided with the French to put it through Paris. As it happened San Domingo were the only ones brave enough to take on the mighty Lion.

 

[Purple]

The Brits had already used Greenwich for maps and charts for years and they had a massive Navy, the one they used to murder and exploit their way around the world, so it was too big a deal to choose anywhere else. So, as I said already, the Brits choose Greenwich themselves.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The Brits had already used Greenwich for maps and charts for years and they had a massive Navy, the one they used to murder and exploit their way around the world, so it was too big a deal to choose anywhere else. So, as I said already, the Brits choose Greenwich themselves.

Yes and they also chose the language of commerce and technology and being the most used language in the World nobody is complaining, except the French and of course the Irish. I still think six footer is better than One Hundred and Eighty! Not that I achieve those scores myself on either front. I once got a bullseye in darts.

 

[Purple]

Yes and they also chose the language of commerce and technology and being the most used language in the World nobody is complaining, ecept the French and of course the Irish. I still think six footer is better than One Hundred and Eighty! Not that I achieve those scores myself on either front. I once got a bullseye in darts.

I don’t remember us complaining about English being used for any of those things and I’ve certainly never had a problem with GMT, neither have I heard any other Irish person complaining about it. That doesn’t take away from the fact that they chose It.

I prefer a system of weights and measures that is based on logic and uses decimalisation rather than one based on the size of a kings foot which used fractions.
The metric temperature and volume measurements are all linked. It’s brilliantly simple.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I don’t remember us complaining about English being used for any of those things and I’ve certainly never had a problem with GMT, neither have I heard any other Irish person complaining about it. That doesn’t take away from the fact that they chose It.

Maybe “complaining“ is the wrong word. Let’s say “resentful” or wishing we could change it or even trying to change it. If it was up to me I would have an English Thanksgiving day. Nobody complains about GMT, I agree.

I prefer a system of weights and measures that is based on logic and uses decimalisation rather than one based on the size of a kings foot which used fractions.
The metric temperature and volume measurements are all linked. It’s brilliantly simple.

Well yes, the SI system has been agreed by everyone including the Brits.
Still for the common man or woman the old ways had some advantages as I have mentioned.
Millennials will shudder to be told that there used to be 12 pennies in a shilling and 20 shillings in a pound. But the mental arithmetic gymnastics involved in everyday shopping was very conducive to exercising that part of the brain for the citizenry. Decimalisation turned shopping into mental slush.

 

[Purple]

Maybe “complaining“ is the wrong word. Let’s say “resentful” or wishing we could change it or even trying to change it.

I don’t see that at all.

If it was up to me I would have an English Thanksgiving day.

“Marvellous people the English, marvellous!”
Were you the only person who didn’t see that joke in The Life of Brian?

Nobody complains about GMT, I agree.

About time!

Well yes, the SI system has been agreed by everyone including the Brits.
Still for the common man or woman the old ways had some advantages as I have mentioned.

And many more disadvantages.

Millennials will shudder to be told that there used to be 12 pennies in a shilling and 20 shillings in a pound. But the mental arithmetic gymnastics involved in everyday shopping was very conducive to exercising that part of the brain for the citizenry. Decimalisation turned shopping into mental slush.

I’m nearly 50 and I don’t remember the pre-decimal system. Arguing that the old system improves mental agility is like arguing than fetching water from the well is better than indoor plumbing because it encourages exercise.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Arguing that the old system improves mental agility is like arguing than fetching water from the well is better than indoor plumbing because it encourages exercise.

You've got a point there. I believe obesity is a modern scourge.

 

[Purple]

More Shinner sycophantery from Una in todays Irish Times.
It's like reading the Daily Telegraph's opinions on the UK Tory's. I hope Una's on a retainer from the Boys in Belfast.

 

[time to plan]

The UK is the biggest tax haven in the world.
France has a lower effective corporation tax on their top companies than us. It was FF who reduced corporation tax for manufacturing and export companies to 12.5% and a Labour minister who reduced it to 12.5% for all companies. Are Labour right of centre in your world? The Shinners are also supporters of our low rate. Are they right of centre?

The UK’s NHS was set up by Labour and outside of Covid the Tories have generally not supported it anywhere near as much as FG and other left of centre parties have supported the HSE.

I just don’t see any right of centre policies from FG.

So what we see is national context.

Free GP care globally might be a left-wing policy but in the UK context it's mainstream - UK exceptionalism if you like.

Similarly, high social welfare payments might be a left-wing policy but in the Irish context it's mainstream. Low CT rates might be a right-wing policy but in the Irish context it's mainstream.

If you want to see a right of centre policy coming out of FG, take a look at their 2020 election manifesto. Here's an example:

The average full-time wage in Ireland is €47,596. However, people start paying the top-rate of tax at €35,300. This is deeply unfair. As people’s wages increase, it is critical that the taxation system does not prevent them from seeing improvements in their take home pay by failing to keep pace with this wage inflation. Therefore, we will change the point at which an individual pays the higher rate of tax to €50,000 over the next five years. This will prevent people’s taxes increasing as their wages increase. The annual benefit for an average earner at the end of five years will be just under €3,000, which will ensure that tax levels keep up with projected income growth.

The biggest beneficiaries of this policy would be all workers earning over 50k per year, including workers earning very high incomes. This is to my mind a right of centre policy. Of course, you may disagree and that's fine. That's not the puzzling thing. The puzzling thing is that you think:

There is no Party that could even be described as right of centre, except by those on the far left or those that are delusional.

 

[Purple]

So what we see is national context.

Free GP care globally might be a left-wing policy but in the UK context it's mainstream - UK exceptionalism if you like.

Similarly, high social welfare payments might be a left-wing policy but in the Irish context it's mainstream.

You are correct; in the Irish context these policies are mainstream. All that tells us is, as I previously pointed out, all mainstream Irish political parties are left of centre.

Low CT rates might be a right-wing policy but in the Irish context it's mainstream.

They are essential to fund our very high welfare rates and extremely well funded healthcare system.
All Parties know that they are very mobile revenues and are here mainly because of that low tax rate. That's just reality, unavoidable even to the most delusional populist terrorist apologist.

If you want to see a right of centre policy coming out of FG, take a look at their 2020 election manifesto. Here's an example:



The biggest beneficiaries of this policy would be all workers earning over 50k per year,
including workers earning very high incomes. This is to my mind a right of centre policy. Of course, you may disagree and that's fine. That's not the puzzling thing. The puzzling thing is that you think:

I don't think a policy position that average income earners should not pay the highest marginal tax rate is right wing. In fact it's bizarre that such a policy would be regarded as right wing.
How is saying that average income earners should pay a lower marginal tax rate than high earners right wing?
I'm a high income earner. I wouldn't notice an increase in the income tax band to €50k.

Those earning from €47,596 to €50k a year will benefit by exactly the same amount at those earning €500k a year. That's hardly a right wing policy.

 

[time to plan]

You are correct; in the Irish context these policies are mainstream. All that tells us is, as I previously pointed out, all mainstream Irish political parties are left of centre.

They are essential to fund our very high welfare rates and extremely well funded healthcare system.
All Parties know that they are very mobile revenues and are here mainly because of that low tax rate. That's just reality, unavoidable even to the most delusional populist terrorist apologist.


I don't think a policy position that average income earners should not pay the highest marginal tax rate is right wing. In fact it's bizarre that such a policy would be regarded as right wing.
How is saying that average income earners should pay a lower marginal tax rate than high earners right wing?
I'm a high income earner. I wouldn't notice an increase in the income tax band to €50k.

Those earning from €47,596 to €50k a year will benefit by exactly the same amount at those earning €500k a year. That's hardly a right wing policy.

Presumably you must think that all UK parties are lefty wing because they believe in free GP care?

The effect of this policy is to decrease taxation with the greatest decreases in taxation going to above average earners and also going to the highest earners. Do you really not think that tax cuts for people earning over 200k per year is a Centre Right policy?

Anyway I've come to the conclusion that you must simply be either on the far right or delusional to think that:

There is no Party that could even be described as right of centre, except by those on the far left or those that are delusional.