the day enda lost the next election-awful

dereko1969 said:
I would be of the opinion that the death of Savita in Galway was caused by this, so wouldn't be of the opinion that this is now past.
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As noted in this thread, the cause(s) of Savita's tragic death now seem clear as mud. http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=171963

The reasons why another Indian native, Sligo resident Dhara Kivlehan, died in similar circumstances some two years earlier, also remain unresolved, but have failed to attract any public attention until last week.

http://www.herald.ie/news/why-did-wife-die-after-our-baby-was-born-father-29043902.html

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Si...gnored-in-the-mainstream-media-189989071.html
 
There is no doubt an apology is due to all the Magdalene women, and I expect it will come. But what made me sick was Mary Lou brazenly seeking an apology one hour after the report was published when it took her party some 17 years to apologise for the murder of Sgt Gerry McCabe. I don't see Sinn Fein or the IRA proposing any compensation to the McCabe family or the others who they killed.
When it comes to hypocrisy it's hard to beat SF.
 
Conan said:
There is no doubt an apology is due to all the Magdalene women, and I expect it will come. But what made me sick was Mary Lou brazenly seeking an apology one hour after the report was published when it took her party some 17 years to apologise for the murder of Sgt Gerry McCabe. I don't see Sinn Fein or the IRA proposing any compensation to the McCabe family or the others who they killed.
When it comes to hypocrisy it's hard to beat SF.
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I'm sure Jean McConville would rather have been in a Magdalene laundry.
 
Of course not just the state and Church were to blame, society as a whole turning a blind eye were complicit, businesses who used the laundries, every family that left their daughter in there, their sister, their niece or cousin.

I was horrified to hear a woman on the radio earlier talking about being put to work in a laundry at the age of 10: it's incredible to think how that child and others were just left there by so many people who must have known.

Society was very different then, people were also incarcerated in mental institutions for being epileptic, or for any of a wide range of simple learning disabilities, for being deaf or mute, mental illlnesses or genetic disorders- thousands of people who could have led a happy, productive life in society. Women were treated like lepers for getting pregnant while the man involved was untouched. Even if it was rape.

More hypocrisy of the opposition parties now is also sickening, FF flatly denied the State had any involvement in the Magdelene Laundries just a few years ago, now baying for an apology.
 
I agree 100% Vanilla. I'd add postnatal depression to the list of reasons women were locked up, many for the rest of their lives.
Any society that treats 50% of their population as second class (at best) will never thrive and Ireland was a poorer place for being dominated and run by misogynistic old men.
Thankfully we have emerged from that dark place but there are still a few shadows lingering. It’s hard to believe that it was only 1993 when homosexuality was decriminalised.
 
Even now you'd wonder about how children, in particular, are being treated. Every year you hear the stats about how many children "in care" have died - now I dont want to sensationalise it, those "in care" are not necessarily in residential care or under the daily control of the HSE or whoever, but the fact remains that many children and teenagers are dying every year. Then you have the prison system, problems with St Pats - the "high walls" mentality to mental illness is only slowly changing - not helped by the tabloid 'crazed axed murderer' type headlines whenever they get half a chance.

So not time yet to be patting ourselves on the back - though there have been improvements and, given their record, the diminishing influence of religious orders on people in care must surely be seen as a positive.
 
Betsy Og said:
So not time yet to be patting ourselves on the back - though there have been improvements and, given their record, the diminishing influence of religious orders on people in care must surely be seen as a positive.
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Oddly enough, the steep declines in hygiene standards in hospital wards in recent times has been (perhaps unfairly) attributed to the fact that the nuns are no longer managing the wards.

Given the current state of the HSE and the Dickensian conditions in places like St Pats, St Ita's in Portrane (until recently) and Mountjoy Prison, you are correct that its rather premature to be patting ourselves on the back.
 
T McGibney said:
Oddly enough, the steep declines in hygiene standards in hospital wards in recent times has been (perhaps unfairly) attributed to the fact that the nuns are no longer managing the wards.
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Yes, I've often heard that said, and also it must be said that when religious orders started out in healthcare and education they were probably the only option available at the time (as the State hadnt got it act together). However, in the laundy case, I dont think there was ever a good case for having them at all, and then the treatment was absolutely unchristian - which is the bit I can never get with these religious, all prayers and piety and no christian values going with it, just high on unquestioned power...... make you sick .....
 
The more I think about this the less I blame the religious orders.
What happened to the women and girls in these institutions was symptomatic of the society that existed at the time.
Does anyone seriously think that they would have been treated any better if the laundries, or another comparable institution, were run by the state with no church involvement? Just look at how young boys were treated in borstals during the same period.

Blaming religious orders somehow separates the problem from the rest of the country and allows us to pigeon-hole the problem away from any collective guilt or responsibility. The problem was much broader than that. I suppose the real question is how much society was influenced by the RC Church and how much the RC Church was just a reflection of society.
 
Purple said:
The more I think about this the less I blame the religious orders.
What happened to the women and girls in these institutions was symptomatic of the society that existed at the time.
Does anyone seriously think that they would have been treated any better if the laundries, or another comparable institution, were run by the state with no church involvement? Just look at how young boys were treated in borstals during the same period.

Blaming religious orders somehow separates the problem from the rest of the country and allows us to pigeon-hole the problem away from any collective guilt or responsibility. The problem was much broader than that. I suppose the real question is how much society was influenced by the RC Church and how much the RC Church was just a reflection of society.
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I haven't read the report, but from what I've read (which isn't extensive) is it not the case that there weren't cases of physical or sexual abuse taking place? That is, it was the nature or cause of the incarceration rather than their treatment "inside" that was the problem.

And the "stigma" wasn't created by the religious orders solely it was a community reaction to those incarcerated, which of course, was fed in the first place by the religious orders..
 
Purple said:
how much society was influenced by the RC Church and how much the RC Church was just a reflection of society.
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But look at more recent times, society moved on but the RC clearly didnt as evidenced by their attitude in dealing with these issues. Shouldnt the RC have been "a cut above" society in terms of christian dealings - sadly that would not appear to have been so.
 
I can quote you how things were, a 12 year old tells another 12 year old the facts of life, 12 year who was told tells their mum, mum complains to priest and 12 year old is sent away for 4 years.


a true story
 
T McGibney said:
As noted in this thread, the cause(s) of Savita's tragic death now seem clear as mud. http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=171963

The reasons why another Indian native, Sligo resident Dhara Kivlehan, died in similar circumstances some two years earlier, also remain unresolved, but have failed to attract any public attention until last week.

http://www.herald.ie/news/why-did-wife-die-after-our-baby-was-born-father-29043902.html

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Si...gnored-in-the-mainstream-media-189989071.html
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I don't see how those cases are similar at all. The fact that there hasn't been a coroner's inquest in the first case is a disgrace in my opinion but the only common ground between the two cases are the nationality of the women who died.
 
dereko1969 said:
I don't see how those cases are similar at all. The fact that there hasn't been a coroner's inquest in the first case is a disgrace in my opinion but the only common ground between the two cases are the nationality of the women who died.
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...and the fact that both died of aggravated infections contracted in HSE maternity wards.
 
T McGibney said:
...and the fact that both died of aggravated infections contracted in HSE maternity wards.
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yes but how many other people have died from aggravated infections contracted in HSE maternity wards or other wards, the only link between the two is their nationality.
The pathetic spin put on linking the two is insulting to the memory of both women.
 
dereko1969 said:
yes but how many other people have died from aggravated infections contracted in HSE maternity wards or other wards,
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Yes, it would be interesting to have this question answered by the HSE. If such deaths are indeed relatively commonplace in HSE maternity wards, this would cast a new light on the possible causes of Savita's tragic death. If they are rare, this would imply that the parallels between Savita's and Dhara's deaths are closer than you make out.
 
T McGibney said:
Yes, it would be interesting to have this question answered by the HSE. If such deaths are indeed relatively commonplace in HSE maternity wards, this would cast a new light on the possible causes of Savita's tragic death. If they are rare, this would imply that the parallels between Savita's and Dhara's deaths are closer than you make out.
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You're clutching at straws here.

The second lady died as a result of an infection post operation (c-section)it would seem (scant detail in articles), savita died from infection caused it would seem by the refusal to perform an operation.

How are they the same?
 
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