The Cloyne Report & the Vatican.

Complainer said:
It will be well understood by the chattering classes, but it really won't be well understood by lots of people. It certainly won't be understood at all by the 25% of Irish people that are functionally illiterate.

A bit of plain speaking wouldn't go astray.
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Agree with Purple here Complainer. That's about as condescending as you can get! Do you really honestly believe 25% of the Irish people won't understand the message Enda sent to the Vatican? Probably says more about you if so. That was as impressive a speech as I've heard from a Taoiseach in a long long time. Forthright, no punches pulled, and you could see that this was a Taoiseach speaking on behalf of his people yesterday, there was no fudging, no holding back, fair play Enda, well said.
 
Complainer said:
I'm not so sure. The content was good, but the language and structure was quite complex, e.g. unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of a canon lawyer etc etc.

It will be well understood by the chattering classes, but it really won't be well understood by lots of people. It certainly won't be understood at all by the 25% of Irish people that are functionally illiterate.

A bit of plain speaking wouldn't go astray.
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Just curious, doesn't illiterate mean difficulty reading and writing rather than mean that 25% of people are stupid? If you're going to champion a cause, try not to offend and patronise the people you're championing. You may be surprised that not only can illiterate people use language and structure that is complex but they also understand it too. In case you missed it, Enda delivered a speech as in oration. He didn't just post up a paper.

Let the complex go and give Enda credit for delivering a powerful and (for this State) landmark speech. One that the vast majority of people got, one that most people couldn't fail to understand the content and context of. So what if the language wasn't "simplified", it's about time we were treated as reasonably intelligent people and not patronised and a politician not appealing to the language of the tabloids.

Somehow I reckon if Gilmore had given the speech you may not have written that post.
 
The only thing missing was an actual call for Sean Brady to resign his position.
 
The_Banker said:
You do the man an injustice. He is probably the only credible man in the hierarchy.
He has shown humility and acceptance of the issues that the church caused.
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I agree. I have huge respect for him.
I heard that there is a major conference in the Vatican on child abuse next month. He should be the main speaker but he hasn't even been invited.
 
Sunny said:
The only thing missing was an actual call for Sean Brady to resign his position.
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Don't ye know there's a crying need for "wounded healers" Sunny, and the Cardinal is doing us a favour by staying on.

Dr Martin is the only churchman I have any respect for. I did think he looked frail on the TV last night. He's paying a high personal price for his courage.
 
Complainer I had to supress a laugh when I saw that post about lots of people not understanding Enda's speech. If someone else had said it, you would have gone thro them for a shortcut.;)
 
Always good to get feedback, folks. Maybe I didn’t explain myself properly, or maybe I was a bit too blunt, or maybe I touched a nerve! So, just to clarify;

I didn’t say or suggest or think that anyone is ‘stupid’. However, there is a significant problem with literacy in Ireland today. The research that I saw from 1999 I think indicated that 25% of adults in Ireland were functionally illiterate, and would have difficulty (for example) in reading a drug prescription leaflet or filling out a housing application form. There are many causes, including low levels of education, poor access to education, disability (sensory, intellectual or physical), culture and attitudes, language and many more.

I am definitely not trying score political party points or anti-Enda points. For the record, I’ve been reasonably impressed with the way Enda has grown into his role, and I wasn’t surprised at all at today’s opinion poll results. The feedback about Enda I get from Labour people in and around Govt is generally positive. I’d also have no doubt that anyone could easily find a pile of speeches or press releases or policy documents on the Labour website that are similarly obtuse.

I take the point that the speech was delivered verbally and not on paper. I didn’t see it myself, and I’d have thought that the vast majority of people didn’t see it. At best, they might have seen a 20-30 second clip on the tv news, followed by commentary from journalists etc.

I’m a big fan of plain English. It is generally very hard to sell the concept, and even harder to get people to change. Just like everyone thinks they’re a good driver, everyone pretty much thinks they are a good writer. Most of us aren’t. Testing the effectiveness of written materials does not happen much, in comparison to testing the effectiveness of a new building or testing the effectiveness of a new IT system. Much of our written output does not reach its target audience or have its desired effect. Maybe if we wrote a bit less, with a bit more focus, we would get better results.

Was it Mark Twain who wrote “I didn’t have time to write you a short letter, so I’m writing you a long one instead”.
 
Fair enough, but it just seemed an odd point to make in the middle of a discussion on what could well be one of the most significant political speeches witnessed.

Re above statement I should also state that there have been complaints regarding condescending behaviour not hyperbolic.
 
Maybe that's where we differ (or should I say yet another place where we differ!) Complainer. I love the richness, colourfulness and breadth of the English language. I love that you can say the same thing a number of different ways. It broadens the mind I feel. So I welcome the language used in the speech. But you still seem to imply that 25% of the country would have difficulty understanding the speech. I fail to see how anyone could have difficulty understanding any of the following:
"The rape and torture of children were downplayed or 'managed' to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and 'reputation'."
"Cloyne's revelations are heart-breaking. It describes how many victims continued to live in the small towns and parishes in which they were reared and in which they were abused. their abuser often still in the area and still held in high regard by their families and the community."
"This report tells us a tale of a frankly brazen disregard for protecting children. If we do not respond swiftly and appropriately as a State, we will have to prepare ourselves for more reports like this."

I could go on but I'm sure you get the point by now! Just because people might not understand every word in a speech does not mean that they don't understand the message in the speech. You seem to either fail to understand this or are simply making an argument about literacy that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed here.
 
Had to look up "narcissism" myself. Excessive self love. Not too sure.:confused:

I want to remind you of the story of Voltaire on his death bed. Asked to renounce the devil he said "now is no time to be making enemies".

There is a possibility that Benny has a direct line to higher powers. Do we really need to make enemies of Him in our hour of economic desperation?:(
 
Ratzinger is an enemy of humanity. I seldom wish harm to clerics, but for him I make an exception.

I seldom applaud politicians, but I'm glad Enda Kenny had the cojones to read out that speech — whoever it was written by.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Had to look up "narcissism" myself. Excessive self love. Not too sure.:confused:

I want to remind you of the story of Voltaire on his death bed. Asked to renounce the devil he said "now is no time to be making enemies".

There is a possibility that Benny has a direct line to higher powers. Do we really need to make enemies of Him in our hour of economic desperation?:(
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This is real old testament stuff here Duke? Are you saying that God will smite us if we upset his representative here on earth?

Maybe because we won't allow his church control over us anymore is the reason for the economic downturn?

You are either winding us all up or you are deadly serious. For your sake I hope your winding us up.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Had to look up "narcissism" myself. Excessive self love. Not too sure.:confused:

I want to remind you of the story of Voltaire on his death bed. Asked to renounce the devil he said "now is no time to be making enemies".

There is a possibility that Benny has a direct line to higher powers. Do we really need to make enemies of Him in our hour of economic desperation?:(
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Narcissism is the personality trait of egotism, vanity, conceit, or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others.

In psychology, the word is associated with a personality disorder known as Narcissistic personality disorder it is a condition characterized by an inflated sense of self-importance, need for admiration, extreme self-involvement, and lack of empathy for others. Individuals with this disorder are usually arrogantly self-assured and confident. They expect to be noticed as superior. Many highly successful individuals might be considered narcissistic. However, this disorder is only diagnosed when these behaviors become persistent and very disabling or distressing.
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http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-pe07.html
 
Duke of Marmalade;1186474... I[B said:
want to remind you of the story of Voltaire on his death bed. Asked to renounce the devil he said "now is no time to be making enemies".[/B]
...
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Brilliant :D
 
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