The Cloyne Report & the Vatican.

Let’s all consider that we are lucky are we are not forced to pay for the RC and their dubious actions in Ireland like for example in Germany.

In Germany you have to pay 8-9% of your income tax to the church, no matter what. It’s automatically deducted from your salary and the only way out of it is to formally leave the church (no it’s not just stop attending, you have to go to your local authority and declare formally that you leave the church and pay a 50€ fee for that too).

Once that is done your church will no longer do anything for you as you have left the church. So you can claim to be RC but because you are not paying them they will not do anything for you. So forget it if you want a church service when you die, not possible, as you decided to leave church. Forget it if you want to marry in church, not possible.

All the while the church in some areas makes 65% of their riches by this tax.
 
Speaking as someone who was born and raised in the diocese of Cloyne and who attended the Diocesesian Seminary (which was the local boarding school) where at least 2 of the cases of abuse happened I've been reading a lot on what happened in Cloyne and speaking to friends/family about it over the last few days.

Fortunately, in my time at the boarding school in the 80s, nothing ever happened me nor was I aware of anything going on (albeit, I think we were more innocent back then anyway). The one thing I did learn about priests there was that they were human beings. There were some, who to this day, I have the utmost time and respect for. I can remember 50 of us sitting in their sitting rooms of an evening after study watching the news/a match or whatever was on with no issues. They were good decent men. However, there were others who frankly, were violent, hypocrites and only interested in money. It is wrong to tarnish the whole clergy with the one brush. One poster on here spoke of "boycotting the clergy". Does that include the parish priest who reported a fellow priest to Magee, not once, but twice, then contacted the bishops office to find out when the investigator was due to visit and then when nothing was happening, contacted the external authorities.? (This is in the Murphy report).

Magee was never popular in Cloyne. He was a "blow in" for starters (and you know what us Cork people are like!!). He didn't endure himself to the parishes when parish property was sold and the money went into diocesan funds as opposed to parish funds. I think his biggest issue was his ego. Because he came from Rome and the higher echelons there and had never really worked in a parish, I think he thought that all of the abuse victims were beneath him and less important than the reputation of the clergy. There are priests in the diocese who had no time for him either. O’Callaghan was just a “yes man”, a lap dog who did what he was told and was put in that position of power because those were the kind of men Magee wanted around him.

The cover up angers me but the cowardice of Magee annoys me even more, but frankly, I don’t think anyone in Cork truly expected much else.

I was at Mass on Sunday (not in Cloyne), with my family. The Parish Priest walked through what is done in the parish and diocese in relation to child protection. I have sympathy for people like him; after all, if one of my colleagues at work turned out to be a serial abuser and it was covered up by our bosses, would I be expected to spend the rest of my career apologizing for them?

Has this shaken my faith?, no to be honest, I don’t think it has. I don’t look at the Catholic Church as just being the Vatican, priests etc, instead, to me, it is a Community of people, and the clergy are just a small part of that. I’m sure people on here will disagree with that, maybe think I’m an idiot or a fool, that’s fine, that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to that, but I’m also entitled to mine.

As to the future, I do believe the Nuncio should be expelled, but given that our Foreign Affairs agenda is driven by the EU these days, I’ll be surprised if it happens. I also believe all clerical abusers and those who willingly covered it up (as opposed to being simply incompetent) should be defrocked and excommunicated. It won’t happen but I do believe that one day, when they shuffle off this planet, they will be answerable.

I actually don’t think it will be a bad thing if the power of the Church diminishes in Irish life. Its hold was too great. However can I ask posters on here to remember a couple of things. Firstly, there is a nationwide church collection next Sunday for the African Famine and secondly, there are thousands of people in this country currently being supported by St Vincent de Paul. Whatever people’s opinion of the clergy is, don’t forget and ignore the positive work being done as well
 
mpsox said:
has this shaken my faith?, no to be honest, i don’t think it has. I don’t look at the catholic church as just being the vatican, priests etc, instead, to me, it is a community of people, and the clergy are just a small part of that.
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Great post mpsox. The good stuff in the Church shouldn't be forgotton. The SVP must be one of the best charities going.
 
No fan of the man but I was much impressed with Enda's speech today - clear and to the point!
 
Nice one Enda. Next step in the interests of the entire RC church and for the faithful of that church, send the Nuncio home, and hit the headlines around the world. Let the canon lawyers in Rome try and put out that fire.
 
Just watching the RTE news. Unbelievable. Diarmuid Martin cut a totally pathetic figure, why did he agree to appear?

AIB share prices have fallen by 99.5%. Similarly, BoI and ILP and of course Anglo has been wiped.

I couldn't help but see the analogy that the stock price of the RC Church has also fallen by a similar percentage.

And of course FF has had a similar meltdown.

Who could have ever foreseen such collapses across these pillars of our society.
 
The_Banker said:
Excellent speech by Enda.
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I'm not so sure. The content was good, but the language and structure was quite complex, e.g. unprecedented juncture, excavates the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism....the narcissism, the primacy of the institution, gimlet eye of a canon lawyer etc etc.

It will be well understood by the chattering classes, but it really won't be well understood by lots of people. It certainly won't be understood at all by the 25% of Irish people that are functionally illiterate.

A bit of plain speaking wouldn't go astray.

Duke of Marmalade said:
Shatter wrote that speech.
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Just curious - is this fact or speculation?
 

I can't decide if that's inverted snobbery or patronising or both.
 
Delighted Enda made that speech and I don't care who wrote it. About time too. The end of Rome rule methinks.
 


You do the man an injustice. He is probably the only credible man in the hierarchy.
He has shown humility and acceptance of the issues that the church caused.
 
The_Banker said:
You do the man an injustice. He is probably the only credible man in the hierarchy.
He has shown humility and acceptance of the issues that the church caused.
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I agree. I felt sorry for him. He came on to be humble and contrite and Brian Dobson asked him straight out does he agree with Enda that his boss is evil incarnate. He was then between a rock and a very hard place.

He subsequently tried a counterpunch with "why no criticism of the State?". For a start Henda did criticise the State or at least former FF governments, but even so this was a truly pathetic counterpunch.
 
The_Banker said:
You do the man an injustice. He is probably the only credible man in the hierarchy.
He has shown humility and acceptance of the issues that the church caused.
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I agree. So he can forget about promotion! Not a Enda fan but fair play to him.
 
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