I've read part of the Cloyne report and listened to some of the reporting on it. Full text [broken link removed] It's shocking to think that, despite all the history of dreadful abuse in Ireland, this continues. I suspect that the Vatican's lack of support (to say the least) lies at the heart of the failure to deal with this terrible problem. I suspect they still believe themselves above civil & national laws. Is it time to review our relationship with the Vatican State, and not just the local church and what, if anything, needs to happen?
The Cloyne Report & the Vatican.
- Thread starter horusd
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What shocked me is the fact that the Church is still to this day not doing all it can. Sean Brady defended Magee right up to a couple of years ago. Now he is saying, he didn't defend him very strongly! Archbishop Martin criticises Rome and fellow Bishops and is left isolated. It's unreal.
The way I've often thought of this whole issue is, if it was discovered that staff from McDonalds/Intel/Dell etc. (hypothetically of course) were involved in such a scandal, the head(s) of the company would be summoned straight away, if not already on the way, to sort it out.
+1
The cover up after cover up and the hiding behind Cannon law, has dragged this out too long. Even from the churches side would it not be better just to come clean on everything, call it "annus horribilis" and start to rebuild the relationship with the people (if they want to be invoved in the church obviously)
The government needs to deal with this now, there is too much talk of how Ruari Q. might get the chruch to pay it's share of the victims payments and how eamon Gilmore might summon the Papal Nuncio. Name a date, tell them to get here, bring answers and a cheque book.
+1
The cover up after cover up and the hiding behind Cannon law, has dragged this out too long. Even from the churches side would it not be better just to come clean on everything, call it "annus horribilis" and start to rebuild the relationship with the people (if they want to be invoved in the church obviously)
The government needs to deal with this now, there is too much talk of how Ruari Q. might get the chruch to pay it's share of the victims payments and how eamon Gilmore might summon the Papal Nuncio. Name a date, tell them to get here, bring answers and a cheque book.
What I can't understand is why the whole issue of cannon law is even raised. Surely, the law of the land is all that matters. Child abuse is a crime and if an individual is preventing the investigation of a crime, they should be dealt with like anyone else, even if they are a member of the church.
I simply took it as another diversion tactic. I'm not too sure what defense it offered, if any. I could be wrong but it seemed another attempt to confuse/delay/hide the real issues and truths.
Marion, just seen it mentioned on rte.ie.
The way it is written is that priests will have to report child abuse i.e. in the future.
I'm wondering about the cases in the report where cases were not reported.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0714/cloyne.html
DrMoriarty
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The Catholic Church's position has always been that canon law takes precedence over any civil or criminal law, anywhere, at all times. Rather like Shariah. Its clergy take vows to obey orders unquestioningly and face excommunication and personal ruin if they don't. Irish bishops are neither braver nor more stupid than any others.
The only surprise in all of this is the number of people who seem to expect that the Church will somehow change its spots in this regard. Every possible diversion and delaying tactic in the book will be used in order to buy time for the Vatican further to protect itself from legal redress (above all, financial liability) in jurisdictions less supine than that of the Irish state. Since the abuse scandals began to emerge in the US, for example, the catholic Church there has been employing some of the best legal minds in the world to ensure that Church assets are put beyond the reach of any state judiciary. It is one of the wealthiest and most unaccountable private organisations in the world.
The only surprise in all of this is the number of people who seem to expect that the Church will somehow change its spots in this regard. Every possible diversion and delaying tactic in the book will be used in order to buy time for the Vatican further to protect itself from legal redress (above all, financial liability) in jurisdictions less supine than that of the Irish state. Since the abuse scandals began to emerge in the US, for example, the catholic Church there has been employing some of the best legal minds in the world to ensure that Church assets are put beyond the reach of any state judiciary. It is one of the wealthiest and most unaccountable private organisations in the world.
What strikes me is that the RC Church is both a state and a Church, and can uniquely use it's "statehood" to throw a firewall around itself. I don't doubt that the abuse problems primarily relate to the Irish clergy's handling of it, but the Vatican is also a huge part of the problem.
When Gilmore meets the Nuncio (was this the guy who said he couldn't help in the enquiry?) I would like to hear that he put this priest/diplomat in his place, and leaves it in no doubt that the actions of the Vatican have been part of the problem.
When Gilmore meets the Nuncio (was this the guy who said he couldn't help in the enquiry?) I would like to hear that he put this priest/diplomat in his place, and leaves it in no doubt that the actions of the Vatican have been part of the problem.
The Vatican should be viewed as a hostile state, guilty of sedition in that it acts to undermine the sovereignty of the Irish state from within.
Diplomatic relations should be broken off, our ambassador should be recalled and the Papal Nuncio should be expelled.
This has been my view for a number of years but I am not a Catholic. My father is a catholic and a strongly committed one; he agrees with me.
Diplomatic relations should be broken off, our ambassador should be recalled and the Papal Nuncio should be expelled.
This has been my view for a number of years but I am not a Catholic. My father is a catholic and a strongly committed one; he agrees with me.
Sean Brady should be in prison. He is a disgrace.
A couple of points apropos to this. I hear the Nuncio saying he was taking the report and passing it onto Rome. Does the Nuncio seriously expect us to believe the Vatican haven't got one already online and already begun considering a defence of some kind? Do these people take us for total fools?
I also heard Monsignor O'Callaghan (News @ One) mouth a strange hybrid between a defence of himself and a strange apology to everyone affected. It reminded me of that "mental reservation" business with the old Cardinal O'Connell. The man hasn't a clue of the harm his actions have entailed imo. Another priest on the same program said that wether or not he broke the law, he wouldn't be revealing a sexual abuse confession made to him in the future. In other words, the Church's confessional rules trumps the law. So much for change in the church so.
I agree with Purple, we should treat the official church & the Vatican as hostile. Let them have a chance to respond to the report, and then after the mealy-mouthed apologies and vague promises they don't intend to keep, send their ambassador home, and withdraw ours. It's time for shock tactics . Ireland kicking out the Papal Nuncio might just get some action.
I also heard Monsignor O'Callaghan (News @ One) mouth a strange hybrid between a defence of himself and a strange apology to everyone affected. It reminded me of that "mental reservation" business with the old Cardinal O'Connell. The man hasn't a clue of the harm his actions have entailed imo. Another priest on the same program said that wether or not he broke the law, he wouldn't be revealing a sexual abuse confession made to him in the future. In other words, the Church's confessional rules trumps the law. So much for change in the church so.
I agree with Purple, we should treat the official church & the Vatican as hostile. Let them have a chance to respond to the report, and then after the mealy-mouthed apologies and vague promises they don't intend to keep, send their ambassador home, and withdraw ours. It's time for shock tactics . Ireland kicking out the Papal Nuncio might just get some action.
Most RC priests were not child abusers. But many were.
To be clear - we are talking about raping little boys and girls.
Most RC priests knew or suspected that this was going on. And did nothing.
In my mind this makes most RC priests at best, moral cowards, at worst,scum.
And all contact with them should be avoided.
The "good" ones ,if they had any moral courage, should quit the official RCF church -or at the very least openly and loudly protest the behaviour of their superiors-from bishop to Pope.
Does this sound extreme ? As extreme as what those priests did?
To be clear - we are talking about raping little boys and girls.
Most RC priests knew or suspected that this was going on. And did nothing.
In my mind this makes most RC priests at best, moral cowards, at worst,scum.
And all contact with them should be avoided.
The "good" ones ,if they had any moral courage, should quit the official RCF church -or at the very least openly and loudly protest the behaviour of their superiors-from bishop to Pope.
Does this sound extreme ? As extreme as what those priests did?
While I've no sympathy for the insitution of the church, I have known various priests in my lifetime and, lucky enough, all were good honest decent people. I've never heard their name in relation to any allegation or that they knew and did nothing.
So for those people I do have sympathy. I know they're all feeling very low today, hated for their vocation, whether innocent or guilty. They do feel very let down both by the individuals and the response.
As regards the church, they've messed it up too many times. The main thing now is to limit their access to children, stop the opportunity. Would be crazy for any parent to allow a situation where their child can be alone & under the control of any adult (beyond immediate family, and even then....), so I think general vigilence should stamp it out.
I think the rigours of the law should be applied to those who covered up - jail time would be a good signal, and the assets of the church should be available to compensate - why should the taxpayer pay for it? While I dont have great personal faith, if I did I think I'd be taking a direct line to God/This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, how can you put any credence in an institution that acts like that ... so depressing.
Overall I just hope the victims can be given the assistance they need to cope & that this horrible farce ends here.
So for those people I do have sympathy. I know they're all feeling very low today, hated for their vocation, whether innocent or guilty. They do feel very let down both by the individuals and the response.
As regards the church, they've messed it up too many times. The main thing now is to limit their access to children, stop the opportunity. Would be crazy for any parent to allow a situation where their child can be alone & under the control of any adult (beyond immediate family, and even then....), so I think general vigilence should stamp it out.
I think the rigours of the law should be applied to those who covered up - jail time would be a good signal, and the assets of the church should be available to compensate - why should the taxpayer pay for it? While I dont have great personal faith, if I did I think I'd be taking a direct line to God/This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, how can you put any credence in an institution that acts like that ... so depressing.
Overall I just hope the victims can be given the assistance they need to cope & that this horrible farce ends here.
DrMoriarty
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Because of the 2002 indemnity deal brokered by Michael Woods on his last day in office. Watch this space, and see absolutely nothing happen.
The thing that is starting to bug me about all this (and its only the tip of the iceberg) is the fact that the term "clerical child sex abuse" is now used so much that for some its starting to just become a phrase and its real meaning is being lost.
Everytime I hear a news report on it my skin crawls, that grown men could be so evil, so sick to do that to small, defenceless children, and have other men think it is fine to cover it up and say nothing. And these are meant to be 'good men' at that.
I cannot really think of a crime that is more hideous or heinous. It makes me sick. These people have been jailed then, but if its all to be retrospective, then hunt them like Nazi's. Hunt them, all the many hundreds or thousands and put them away until they die.
The CC has ruined itself, and its strangehold on Ireland is a generation away from dying. I for one am glad, as they caused all this themselves.
Everytime I hear a news report on it my skin crawls, that grown men could be so evil, so sick to do that to small, defenceless children, and have other men think it is fine to cover it up and say nothing. And these are meant to be 'good men' at that.
I cannot really think of a crime that is more hideous or heinous. It makes me sick. These people have been jailed then, but if its all to be retrospective, then hunt them like Nazi's. Hunt them, all the many hundreds or thousands and put them away until they die.
The CC has ruined itself, and its strangehold on Ireland is a generation away from dying. I for one am glad, as they caused all this themselves.
Maybe its time for a "fitness to practice" assessment for all religions in Ireland. If you dont meet the grade (including child protection, transparency of funding etc) then remove the charitable status of all affiliates (hits fundraising significantly) - you cant ban a religion as such but you cant take away any favourable status afforded by the State.
Not sure what else you can do - I'm a believer in absolute separation of church and state - how practical that is in Ireland re eduacation and health I'm not sure, but no matter how messy I think its time to finish the job since I would guess that the majority of the nation would have no objection to removing religious influence from education and health.
Religion is a personal matter that shouldnt come into other aspects of life - if you want to "live your faith" then fair enough but I think the CC has had its day as regards wider influence in Ireland.
Not sure what else you can do - I'm a believer in absolute separation of church and state - how practical that is in Ireland re eduacation and health I'm not sure, but no matter how messy I think its time to finish the job since I would guess that the majority of the nation would have no objection to removing religious influence from education and health.
Religion is a personal matter that shouldnt come into other aspects of life - if you want to "live your faith" then fair enough but I think the CC has had its day as regards wider influence in Ireland.
Lex Foutish
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I have to say, RMCF, that I'm SO ANGRY with all that has come from the report and I agree with all you say in your post. The bit I've highlighted in bold above is so true.
Sure, the CC did a lot of good in this country over the years but the way they controlled the people and the politicians, the way that they acted as mind police and instilled feelings of guilt in their flock to aid that control has left me with a feeling of almost complete delight that they have been exposed for what they are and have been mortally wounded, as an organisation, in this country.
I cannot believe that Magee and O'Callaghan couldn't be bothered to turn up to yesterday's press conference! And, to me, O'Callaghan sounded totally insincere on the news with Paschal Sheehy with his expression of "regret."
Does anyone here think that the Government would have the liathróidí to expel the Papal Nuncio if Rome doesn't come back with a satisfactory response to what Eamonn Gilmore said today?
To be fair to Kenny and Gilmore, they are taking a much tougher line with the Vatican than I expected. Usually politicians will just avoid strong language but listening to the two of them yesterday, there is little doubt as to how annoyed the government is. I agree it is time to cut all diplomatic ties with the Vatican. They have themselves to be as morally corrupt as some of the so called rogue states.