The Bitcoin threads could be interesting in the future

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Lyn Alden on Intrinsic Value of btc said:
To start with, digital assets can certainly have value. In simplistic terms, imagine a hypothetical online massive multiple game played by millions of people around the world. If there was a magical sword item introduced by the developer that was the strongest weapon in the game, and there were only a dozen of them released, and accounts that somehow got one could sell them to another account, you can bet that the price for that digital sword would be outrageous.
Sorry, doesn't do it for me.
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Lyn Alden on possible government ban said:
If bitcoin is successful governments might ban it.
If? $250bn market cap and she is still talking "if". She is right of course. As per Satoshi, John Kelleher et al, bitcoin will only be judged a success when it achieves meaningful adoption as a medium of exchange. The whole $250million is a punt that bitcoin will achieve that success. Lyn then goes on to argue that with increasing institutional take up a ban becomes harder to enforce. I don't follow the logic at all. If the US were to ban bitcoin would Microstrategies continue to publish large holdings in its public accounts?
 
Potentially a good way for people to cash out of their BTC without tax implications.

Actually upon reflection, would this qualify as a CGT eligible event? I read that you don't actually pay in BTC, paypal exchange BTC to USD and pay the merchant in USD. So does this create a CGT eligible event for the customer?

Apparently it will. So unless a user is sitting on gains that outweigh the tax implication then there is no real benefit to use BTC in a transaction on Paypal vs the risk. I assume Paypal will also be charging a large bid/ask spread to account for the potential volatility and settlement risk.

"However, it will not allow cryptocurrencies to be taken off the platform and sent to a bank, or back to the wallet from which they came. Selling crypto within PayPal triggers a taxable event as does using the crypto to buy anything, as PayPal converts the funds into fiat first before paying the merchant".

 
The logic is that they wouldn't ban it *because* companies like MicroStrategy hold it
That is probably what she meant. I don't see people ever wanting bitcoin as a medium of exchange in preference to their own fiat currency. If it did show signs of happening it would threaten monetary policy and the more institutional involvement the easier for the authorities to control or even ban it.
 
I'm confused...how do you ban bitcoin?

Perhaps they could ban exchanges from trading, perhaps they could issue a decree that it is worthless currency, or some other method, but I cannot see how you can actually ban bitcoin.
Of course, such a move a move to ban bitcoin would actually have to have some basis behind it. We are, after all, living in free and open democracies, right?
So to ban it, or try ban it, would require some basis....on what basis could bitcoin be banned?
 
I'm confused...how do you ban bitcoin?

Perhaps they could ban exchanges from trading, perhaps they could issue a decree that it is worthless currency, or some other method, but I cannot see how you can actually ban bitcoin.
Of course, such a move a move to ban bitcoin would actually have to have some basis behind it. We are, after all, living in free and open democracies, right?
So to ban it, or try ban it, would require some basis....on what basis could bitcoin be banned?
I recommend that you read @tecate's interesting link to Lyn Alden. There she discusses how Gold was banned in the mid twentieth century in America. It is in order to protect the nation's monetary system. "First I am the Lord thy Dollar and I shalt not have any sh1tcoins before me."
 
If you banned it you couldn't really enforce prevention of individuals from holding it or transacting in it but banning it would be enforceable at business level which would prevent legal regulated exchanges and institutional investment, perhaps even wallet apps from iphone/google-play stores would be removed. It would destroy retail and institutional investment in bitcoin in whatever country did it.

As a hodler I'm not worried though as I've not seen any evidence yet that it will be banned, especially not in the US. I think there is enough opposition to banning it in terms of wealthy individuals and companies involved in bitcoin lobbying politicians and the now sizable number of the population that have some (including politicians themselves). Politicians need a pretty strong motive to do something that pisses off a significant number of their voters.

I watched some senate hearings about crypto and the main concern of a lot of the politicians seemed to be whether the crypo industry could bring jobs to their state.
 
Banning is as simple as passing a piece of legislation. Banning and preventing are two completely different concepts. Exceeding the speed limits is banned here, yet many people do it on a daily basis. Enforcement doesn't catch everyone, but that doesn't mean it's not banned.

Once thing that always confuses me about the argument for bitcoin being a way to evade the state confiscating your assets is that people don't seem to realise that any government who would do that is certainly more than capable of limiting internet access or content within their borders, and travel through them. Governments, including our own, already filter internet traffic. Unless there's a major re-write of bitcoin, ISPs could easily filter out bitcoin transactions. If there were a re-write, blocking enhancements would likely follow. The BGP exploit attacks (example) show what's possible with deep access.

Bitcoin isn't as anonymous as once thought, authorities have the tools to identify users. If it's banned, enforcement will follow for some.
 
There she discusses how Gold was banned in the mid twentieth century in America. It is in order to protect the nation's monetary system

Yes, but a threat to a nation's monetary, as nefarious a thing as that might be, it suggests it has value?

Nuclear weapons are a threat to humanity, but arguably they also have value in preventing a futile third World War? For some, nuclear weapons have value.

Why would bitcoin be banned?
 
Exceeding the speed limits is banned here, yet many people do it on a daily basis. Enforcement doesn't catch everyone, but that doesn't mean it's not banned.

That is very true, because people see the value in reducing speed to save lives, prevent accidents, reduce insurance claims.
 
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Nuclear weapons are a threat to humanity, but arguably they also have value in preventing a futile third World War? For some, nuclear weapons have value.

Mosquitoes and the diseases they carry are a threat to humanity, are you suggesting that means mosquitos have value?
 
Yes, but a threat to a nation's monetary, as nefarious a thing as that might be, it suggests it has value?
Why would bitcoin be banned?
I refer to John Kelleher. Bitcoin can only have sustainable value whenever it becomes a meaningful means of exchange. Personally, I don't see it ever happening. But if we started to see job advertisements offering bitcoin salaries, or those big double spread Dunnes Stores ads offering cooked ham at x satoshis per slice, well then we would have a parallel monetary system and, as John Kelleher argues, bitcoin would have acquired a genuine utility value as a moe. It would be easy in such a situation to forbid offering salaries in bitcoin or Dunnes Stores pricing its wares in satoshis. This woud quickly kill off its moe utility value. Off course, no amount of banning can prevent cultists hoarding it, just as I am sure folk who are so inclined can access snuff movies.
 
Really? I thought it was quite straightforward and obvious? There is a reason why speed limits are imposed.

If it's the will of the people that introduces speed limits, why do the vast majority exceed those limits in urban areas where collisions with vulnerable users are more likely? Perhaps you did stumble across a very good example of how people are in favour of controls and restrictions that they perceive as affecting others more so than themselves. If cryptos become a threat to state revenue collection and consequently the provision of services and management of factors such as inflation, I'd imagine the majority would be in favour of banning them too.

Developments like DMG's Blockseer are interesting though. If that or similar enhancements are successful then there will be far less incentive on governments banning bitcoin as they will allow full KYC & AML controls.

Eh no, but mosquito repellent has value.

I was pointing to the mixed messages on value here. Some of the crypto faithful are keen to dismiss gold's utility in electronics, industry and jewelry as irrelevant in determining its value, but you suggested that because something constitutes a thread means it has value.
 
Sorry, doesn't do it for me.
Wrong demographic?
If? $250bn market cap and she is still talking "if".
You make a good point, Dukey. Many reference the MySpace example when considering the possibilities of other contenders. However, MySpace never got anywhere close to $250bn.

She is right of course. As per Satoshi, John Kelleher et al, bitcoin will only be judged a success when it achieves meaningful adoption as a medium of exchange.
Rose tented glasses, Dukey? That's what you'd like her to say - it's not what she's saying at all.

Lyn then goes on to argue that with increasing institutional take up a ban becomes harder to enforce. I don't follow the logic at all. If the US were to ban bitcoin would Microstrategies continue to publish large holdings in its public accounts?
Every day above ground for bitcoin means every day there's further sprawl in terms of network effect. It becomes ever greater to put the genie back in the bottle (ergo, it's not possible).
Actually upon reflection, would this qualify as a CGT eligible event? I read that you don't actually pay in BTC, paypal exchange BTC to USD and pay the merchant in USD. So does this create a CGT eligible event for the customer?
Yes. It's the very same with the multitude of crypto debit cards that have hit the market over the past 12-18 months.
I don't see people ever wanting bitcoin as a medium of exchange in preference to their own fiat currency.
Why not? If you live in a country where your local fiat currency is failing or has failed, why not? Or simply one that applies capital controls or debases itself (even more than the others do). Perhaps there are controls in making overseas payments or friction/costs? That's why bitcoin is increasingly being used for payments and international transfers in W.Africa.
If it did show signs of happening it would threaten monetary policy and the more institutional involvement the easier for the authorities to control or even ban it.
If there's competition, then there's an incentive for the purveyors of fiat currency to do better. Anyone should want that scenario. More institutional involvement means more network effect ...ergo, bitcoin gets woven into financial services. It becomes more and more difficult to ban as there would be an ever increasing backlash.
I recommend that you read @tecate's interesting link to Lyn Alden. There she discusses how Gold was banned in the mid twentieth century in America. It is in order to protect the nation's monetary system. "First I am the Lord thy Dollar and I shalt not have any sh1tcoins before me."
And she makes the distinction that there is a difference between that example and now - ergo, the dollar was gold backed back then.
Banning is as simple as passing a piece of legislation. Banning and preventing are two completely different concepts.
Precisely.

Once thing that always confuses me about the argument for bitcoin being a way to evade the state confiscating your assets is that people don't seem to realise that any government who would do that is certainly more than capable of limiting internet access or content within their borders, and travel through them. Governments, including our own, already filter internet traffic. Unless there's a major re-write of bitcoin, ISPs could easily filter out bitcoin transactions. If there were a re-write, blocking enhancements would likely follow. The BGP exploit attacks (example) show what's possible with deep access.
Then people can transact over satellite (right now) or mesh networks (to come). How do people get round China's 'great firewall'? Why can't transactions be routed over tor?

Bitcoin isn't as anonymous as once thought, authorities have the tools to identify users. If it's banned, enforcement will follow.
Re. enforcement, Alden makes the point with the gold ownership prohibition there were serious consequences for defying that ban - yet very few prosecutions. Enforcement is possible (to an extent) but at what point does it become politcally unacceptable as network effect grows?
 
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I refer to John Kelleher. Bitcoin can only have sustainable value whenever it becomes a meaningful means of exchange.
I hope yer getting John something nice for the Crimbo, Dukey. You insist on repeating this - in which case, I've no choice but to remind you that gold exists as a store of value yet it isn't a means of exchange.

But if we started to see job advertisements offering bitcoin salaries, or those big double spread Dunnes Stores ads offering cooked ham at x satoshis per slice, well then we would have a parallel monetary system and, as John Kelleher argues, bitcoin would have acquired a genuine utility value as a moe.
See above - gold exists as a store of value yet it's not a means of exchange. Other than that, there are plenty of people in the digital assets industry being paid in crypto.

It would be easy in such a situation to forbid offering salaries in bitcoin or Dunnes Stores pricing its wares in satoshis. This woud quickly kill off its moe utility value.
Null and void - see above.

Off course, no amount of banning can prevent cultists hoarding it, just as I am sure folk who are so inclined can access snuff movies.
You can continue with the ignorant 'cultist' jibes all you want - it changes nothing.

If cryptos become a threat to state revenue collection and consequently the provision of services and management of factors such as inflation, I'd imagine the majority would be in favour of banning them too.
The technology exists to move to more equitable per use taxation models. Times change, systems change.

Developments like DMG's Blockseer are interesting though. If that or similar enhancements are successful then there will be far less incentive on governments banning bitcoin as they will allow full KYC & AML controls.
Indeed - and it's for that reason that crypto is much preferable to law enforcement than cash. Notwithstanding that, there are privacy updates waiting in the wings for bitcoin. I just don't expect them to be applied in the short term.

I was pointing to the mixed messages on value here. Some of the crypto faithful are keen to dismiss gold's utility in electronics, industry and jewelry as irrelevant in determining its value, but you suggested that because something constitutes a thread means it has value.
You mean the peripheral 7.49% industrial use that has only existed in more recent times?....yet gold had long since established itself as a store of value without it.
As for jewelry, that conversation has been had. The World Gold Council cited jewelry as a store of value - as per their recent report. It's just an extension of that use case.
 
Then people can transact over satellite (right now) or mesh networks (to come). How do people get round China's 'great firewall'?

Only if they can buy a satellite modem, and satellite internet still has to route through ground stations and on through backbones that are state run. People get around the great firewall only to the extent that the authorities allow. Authorised VPN use is permitted, but you need to ask what do companies have to do to achieve authorisation?
 
You mean the peripheral 7.49% industrial use that has only existed in more recent times?....yet gold had long since established itself as a store of value without it.

See, still ignoring the largest class of use. Kinda proves my point.

As for jewelry, that conversation has been had. The World Gold Council cited jewelry as a store of value - as per their recent report. It's just an extension of that use case.

The last time you said that you refused to post a link confirming that view. Can you now?
 
I hope yer getting John something nice for the Crimbo, Dukey. You insist on repeating this - in which case, I've no choice but to remind you that gold exists as a store of value yet it isn't a means of exchange.
With respect, I don't think you fully follow JK's argument. He argues that store of value can only piggyback off some utility value - it cannot stand alone. Gold, Real Estate, Fine Art, Precious Stones etc. are all stores of value but they piggyback off some utility (call it intrinsic if you like) value. None of these not even Gold are any good as an moe.
JK was not arguing that store of value must have moe value. JK's argument is that the only possible utility value that bitcoin can acquire is moe - it stands or falls on achieving that status.
Reminder of thought experiment. Because of Climate Change gold suddenly emits deadly Marmalade Rays. It immediately loses its utility either industrial or ornamental. Even if these fundamental demands may currently only account for a fraction of the demand for gold (the lion's share being as a store of value) if they vanish then so too would the demand for store of value. It is not the case that Gold originated as a store of value because it is scarce - lots of things are scarce. The demand for Gold is much more primeval than that - humans just luv gold.
 
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