The anti-landlord legislation chickens are coming home to roost

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cremeegg

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I'm not saying that we should be giving out free houses to people who can't be bothered to work.
I understand that.

I'm saying that they are far from the only group with a sense of entitlement and bailing out the pensioners cost us far more than the scroungers above.
Just because they are not 'the only group with a sense of entitlement' does not mean that a discussion of this particular group/issue is not valid.
 

noproblem

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Do remember that the State took on tens of billions to bail out the pensioners in the form of their deposits and their pension funds (the bondholders) and tens of billions to continue to pay State employees wages which are still unsustainable. While I agree that people who don't work but could should get nothing there are plenty of groups within Irish society who are living off other groups (look at the beef farmers today; 2/3 of their income is already welfare and they are blocking Dublin to get more) so I wouldn't get too sanctimonious about housing.

At t who loses out; working people on low wages. That's who loses out. They are the people social housing should be for.
Why target pensioners, they're not the only people who had deposits. I'd imagine you might be a depositor of some sort yourself and if not a pensioner yet, you will be some day, hopefully. As for 2/3 of farmers income being welfare, i'd like to see the link to that stating that it's welfare?
 

Purple

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Why target pensioners, they're not the only people who had deposits. I'd imagine you might be a depositor of some sort yourself and if not a pensioner yet, you will be some day, hopefully.
Maybe. If I do end up being a pensioner, getting a State pension I came nowhere close to paying for, and I am bailed out by my grandchildren, I'll try to be more grateful and less entitled that the current batch of pensioners.
As for 2/3 of farmers income being welfare, i'd like to see the link to that stating that it's welfare?
I stand corrected; welfare payments account for 74% of all farm income;
"Decoupled income payments were introduced as part of the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) in 2005. Since their introduction, these payments have, on average, accounted for 74.3 percent of farm income "
Given that Beef is a low income sector that percentage may be higher. CAP payments are welfare payments, what used to be known as "Farmers Dole".
 

Purple

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Just because they are not 'the only group with a sense of entitlement' does not mean that a discussion of this particular group/issue is not valid.
I agree. I'm just saying that we need to be careful about throwing the first stone.
 

odyssey06

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It's one thing to provide support to sections of society who at some time or another have put their shoulder to the wheel.
The cohort being talked about is the can't pay, won't pay, if they break something it is someone else's problem, to hell with all rules of civilised society.

And in relation to the topic here, that cohort of society is certainly one no private landlord would want to deal with, except in a dump of a property.
And no one would want to be neighbours to.
Corporate landlords can absorb the bad tenants and balance off versus the good tenants.
A private landlord with a single property, faced with a tenant like that who won't pay, wrecks the place, causes disruption, has to deal with everything in a costly civil manner.

In the recent legislation it has all been about protecting tenants - and good tenants should be protected. The only story was bad landlords and good tenants.
But - maybe I missed it - but there didn't seem to be anything about bad tenants.
I think that is as big a factor as the rent controls in landlords exiting the market..
 

noproblem

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Maybe. If I do end up being a pensioner, getting a State pension I came nowhere close to paying for, and I am bailed out by my grandchildren, I'll try to be more grateful and less entitled that the current batch of pensioners.

I stand corrected; welfare payments account for 74% of all farm income;
"Decoupled income payments were introduced as part of the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) in 2005. Since their introduction, these payments have, on average, accounted for 74.3 percent of farm income "
Given that Beef is a low income sector that percentage may be higher. CAP payments are welfare payments, what used to be known as "Farmers Dole".
Wow, you sure do have a big chip on that shoulder. Your big gripe would seem to be with pensioners and farmers and what they take from the system but you conveniently forget to mention their contribution to the state over their lifetimes. Have a throwaway remark and highlight it if you like about farmers dole and entitled pensioners but you're totally missing the point being made about hand outs to some of society who have never given and will never give anything to the country. As for other remarks about Cap Payments and European payments to farmers, etc, they are not welfare payments and farmers work bloody hard to fulfill obligations in order to qualify for many of these incentives. Laugh if you like but no one in central Dublin is laughing today and most people in Ireland are not too far away from a farming background in any case. Be thankful Sir of your heritage, you are but a generation or two away from tough times and probably from the earth of this farming country whether you like that or not
 

Purple

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Wow, you sure do have a big chip on that shoulder. Your big gripe would seem to be with pensioners and farmers and what they take from the system but you conveniently forget to mention their contribution to the state over their lifetimes.
I don't forget their contribution but I don't overestimate it either. Retired scroungers are called pensioners. To paraphrase Jesus; the scrounger has always been with us.

Have a throwaway remark and highlight it if you like about farmers dole and entitled pensioners but you're totally missing the point being made about hand outs to some of society who have never given and will never give anything to the country.
How so?

As for other remarks about Cap Payments and European payments to farmers, etc, they are not welfare payments and farmers work bloody hard to fulfill obligations in order to qualify for many of these incentives.
Most do work hard but they are still welfare payments.

Laugh if you like but no one in central Dublin is laughing today and most people in Ireland are not too far away from a farming background in any case.
I'm not laughing. I just suggest that many small farmers are divorced from reality and that reality is grim.
Be thankful Sir of your heritage, you are but a generation or two away from tough times and probably from the earth of this farming country whether you like that or not
I am indeed. My Dublin grandfather worked in an industry which has also disappeared. Those people had to move on without expecting others to fund their unviable industry.
 

The Horseman

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Do remember that the State took on tens of billions to bail out the pensioners in the form of their deposits and their pension funds (the bondholders) and tens of billions to continue to pay State employees wages which are still unsustainable. While I agree that people who don't work but could should get nothing there are plenty of groups within Irish society who are living off other groups (look at the beef farmers today; 2/3 of their income is already welfare and they are blocking Dublin to get more) so I wouldn't get too sanctimonious about housing.

At t who loses out; working people on low wages. That's who loses out. They are the people social housing should be for.

Whether you like it or not we needed to bail out the depositors and the bondholders. We need a functioning banking system for the economy to function on a day to day basis. It is ackowledged the banking sector specifically the mortgage sector is not functioning right but that is for a different thread.

In terms of pensioners, some of these people earned their money over their lifetime, paid PRSI (and got very little in return during their working lives).

These are the self same people who could not afford private pensions, had to pay for everything, had high interest rates etc. I personally don't have an issue with how we treat our pensioners.

I do agree that those who contribute nothing to society should get only the basics (unless sick or have a legitimate inability to work).

Yes those who do loose out are those in the middle, earning too much to avail of social housing, not earning enough to buy a house.
 

josh8267

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Purple
Seeing this tread is being used to have a cut at people already retired and other things not connected to post no one

You say your are a trademan ,So lets Have a look at the amount paid into the system by a 67 year old retiree fitter/trademan in income taxes employers/employees over there working life,
Most would have started serving there apprenticeships aged 15/ 16 , so they would have started work around 1966/67/68

Anco Who looked after apprenticships back then worked off a full trademans weekly wage set at 8.50 pounds a week
First year apprentice would get 1.70 per week less Prsi stamp was .5 of a pound no matter how much you earned all taken from employees wage
back then,

First year if you were under 16 you got 1.7 per week when you reached 16 you weekly wage fell to 1.3 pound a week all of the Insurance stamp came out of the employees wage back then so 29.4% of your wage went in Insurance stamp,
it went up by 1.70 each year reaching full trademens wage in year five 1971/72/73 by then you were well into the income tax net ,

When you get a chance Inform yourself on the % of weekly payroll taken in Employees/employers prsi + income tax taken from a trademan in 1967
Do the same thing in 1972 and every five years untill the retired ,
Come back and let us know how you got on ,It will be interesting to hear back from you ,

Best if you start a new tread with your findings not to be gatecrashing posts not connected to State Contributory retirement Pension,
 
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Purple

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Purple
You say your are a trademan ,So lets Have a look at the amount paid into the system by a 67 year old retiree fitter/trademan in income taxes employers/employees over there working life,
Most would have started serving there apprenticeships aged 15/ 16 , so they would have started work around 1966/67
Anco Who looked after apprenticships back then worked off a full trademans weekly wage set at 8.50 pounds a week
First year apprentice would get 1.70 per week less Prsi stamp was .5 of a pound no matter how much you earned all taken from employees wage
back then,
First year if you were under 16 you got 1.7 per week when you reached 16 you weekly wage fell to 1.3 pound a week all of the Insurance stamp came out of the employees wage back then so 29.4% of your wage went in Insurance stamp,
it went up by 1.70 each year reaching full trademens wage in year five 1971/72 by then you were well into the income tax net ,

When you get a chance Inform yourself on the % of weekly payroll taken in Employees/employers prsi + income tax taken from a trademan in 1967
Do the same thing in 1972 and every five years untill the retired ,
Come back and let us know how you got on ,It will be interesting to hear back from you ,
The average prsi contribution is about €1800 a year. The pays for lots of things including pensions. Therefore the average contribution towards state pensions is less than €1000 a year. That is about a quarter of the cost of funding the State pension.

But don't forget about the pensioners who never worked a day in their life.
 

noproblem

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Purple,
"Retired scroungers are called pensioners" .

That is an awful statement to make, a tragic view of your parents, of mine, everyone else's and indeed myself. No further debate needed with you after such a comment and I genuinely feel sorry for anyone with that mindset. Good luck in life.
 

Purple

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Purple,
"Retired scroungers are called pensioners" .

That is an awful statement to make, a tragic view of your parents, of mine, everyone else's and indeed myself. No further debate needed with you after such a comment and I genuinely feel sorry for anyone with that mindset. Good luck in life.
Why? Do you think scroungers all die-off before the pension age?

My parents generation ran the country during the boom and the bust, along with some people from my generation. They are the generation of planning corruption which has sentenced their grandchildren to 90 minute commutes, rubbish infrastructure and a housing crisis. They are the generation of clerical sex abuse, homophobia, terrorism, climate change and economic ruination. They are the generation which gave out pensions, pay rises and public services to themselves which were unaffordable and when the crash happened they looked after themselves first by mortgaging their grandchildren's future.
And worst of all they feel entitled to be fawned over and thanked for it!

Mind you my generation isn't much better. The so called millenials and the snowflakes are actually a much better, more liberal, more tolerant, more honest and ethical and harder working generation. Hopefully they will sort out the mess we've made of the place.

To bring this thread somewhat back on topic what we are seeing now is generations of corruption, greed, incompetence and stupidity coming home to roost.
 

josh8267

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I dont want to take this tred off topic so I will not be replying but you need to start checking your facts,
I have worked all of my life on a Fitter trademans wage starting off when the employee paid it all on there own ,
Later it got changes to both employer/employee over my Working Life Payroll PRSI stoppeges came to around 19%

If you say trademan is only seeing 1800 euro stopped in PRSI a year from payroll they are only earning 9000 per year , I would not call them trademen ,
They must be fiddeling the system,
 
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josh8267

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Purple you have to include Employers Contributions, In my own case I was the only member of my family not to emigrate, I remained because I got a job in Ireland ,
By employing me this has a long term cost to the Irish state in Contributary pension on reached retirement age.

If I emigrated there would be no employers/employees contributions paid to the Irish State and no Contributary pension to be paid out after paying in for fifty years,

They work I did has to pay for Employers PRSI contributions in the private sector before I add value for my employer,
Do you understand ?,
 
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