Talk Talk, up to 600 jobs gone!

[Purple]

Except we all know most of these jobs (with the exception of 80) will end up in Asia , not the UK.

Some unless you are suggesting a 50 cent minimum wage, I don't see any point here.

The point is that when choosing which of their high-cost plants to close they will choose the highest cost plant.

 

[thedaras]

The point is why would a company choose to pay more than it has too?

And if your point re Asia is true,then the presumption is that all the UK jobs at TT will also move there,which at the moment doesn't appear to be the case..( I heard that they are moving the call centre to Scotland)?

 

[Chris]

Our low rate of corporation tax is the attraction for FDI's & as such will outweigh any concerns about unions in the workplace - I know for a fact that the " red line " for such MNC's is profit.

Absolutely right, and profits will be lower when a company has to employ people to deal with unions and has to factor in wage demands that are higher than the productive value of employees, ultimately resulting in less profits and less jobs.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems from some posters that they think Talk Talk actually owe their workers something...why should they? It's a simple two-way contract between employer and employee. The employee works and gets paid. There's no problem when an employee hands in their notice and moves on and this happens to businesses all over the country (often leaving them without key personnel), so why should it be different when the company hands in its notice?

The same happened in Cork yesrs ago with Ford and Dunlop...you had people bleating on about "I gave my life to that company"....rubbish....they paid their workers along the way and the same workers could have left at anytime you wanted.

Whilst I sympathise with the TT workers, that's the nature of work I'm afraid.

I absolutely agree, but the company could have and should have handled the whole thing better. It is beyond me how anyone can argue that companies owe their workers something.

 

[thedaras]

US MNCs are not ‘less likely’ to be unionized – they simply won’t come here.

If they have to……better to be based in Germany (80million customers), if forced to be unionized, than on the edge of Europe in a tiny market with the higher wage costs that unions would certainly drive………..

 

[Deiseblue]

US MNCs are not ‘less likely’ to be unionized – they simply won’t come here.

If they have to……better to be based in Germany (80million customers), if forced to be unionized, than on the edge of Europe in a tiny market with the higher wage costs that unions would certainly drive………..

Our low rate of corporation Tax of 12.5% ( Germany's rate is 15% ) seems to be our biggest selling feature - U S MNC's have no problem dealing with Unions in other European Countries & when the legislation is introduced here they will adopt the same pragmatic approach - as of 2007 61% of MNC's had some form of engagement with Unions so it's not as if the new legislation is going to come as a terrible shock to everyone.

Chris ; Companies will surely use the offices of their existing HR Departments to deal with Unions , furthermore I believe that a number of companies find it easier to deal with wage demands on a collective basis.

 

[jhegarty]

The point is that when choosing which of their high-cost plants to close they will choose the highest cost plant.

Waterford wasn't first. They have already downsized from (I think) 21 to 14 centres.

 

[thedaras]

So why do you think they closed Waterford?

 

[jhegarty]

So why do you think they closed Waterford?

To move the jobs to Asia.

Why Waterford was 7th of the list to close , I don't know.

I suspect it's only a matter of time of all their call centres.

 

[Mpsox]

Our low rate of corporation Tax of 12.5% ( Germany's rate is 15% ) seems to be our biggest selling feature - U S MNC's have no problem dealing with Unions in other European Countries & when the legislation is introduced here they will adopt the same pragmatic approach - as of 2007 61% of MNC's had some form of engagement with Unions so it's not as if the new legislation is going to come as a terrible shock to everyone.

Chris ; Companies will surely use the offices of their existing HR Departments to deal with Unions , furthermore I believe that a number of companies find it easier to deal with wage demands on a collective basis.

In fairness, I work for a US MNC that will recognise unions when there arewhat we consider a valid reason to do so. An example is when staff are outsourced to us under TUPE. We have recognition agreements with a number of unions

My own experience is that a union is only as good as it's full time officials, some are paranoid and believe employers are out to get "the workers", some are superb and have a common sense approach and recognise that employers have a business to run, and some are a complete waste of space who might write back to us 6 months after we've had a meeting. I've seen union reps walk people into cases and issues that legally the member never had a hope of winning, likewise, I've seen them tell members to cop themselves on and get on with their jobs and be glad to have them.

Unions are like any other business, they need members to stay in business, so they advertise/promise things like any other company. Some deliver great service, some are rubbish. Therefore if anyone is interested in joining a union, make sure you've shopped around for an appropriate one first

 

[Bronte]

And if your point re Asia is true,then the presumption is that all the UK jobs at TT will also move there,which at the moment doesn't appear to be the case..( I heard that they are moving the call centre to Scotland)?

Not sure if that's a wise move. It's often hard to understand someone from India but some Scottish accents are incomprehensible.

 

[Chris]

Chris ; Companies will surely use the offices of their existing HR Departments to deal with Unions , furthermore I believe that a number of companies find it easier to deal with wage demands on a collective basis.

I do not believe that a standard worker in HR would be qualified to deal with trade union officials and demands, especially when these are mandated. Companies find it easiest to implement their own form of salary reviews that suits their needs. If they thought that dealing with salary demands was easier through collective bargaining then why are companies not asking their employees to join unions?
Dealing with unions costs money and drives up costs, it is simply untrue to claim otherwise. Given a choice a company will place itself where it is not forced to deal with a union. Ford's recent announcement to build a plant in India with 5000 jobs is a perfect example.

 

[Deiseblue]

On the contrary I believe that any HR person worth their salt would have no problem in dealing with Unions - their knowledge of the nuances of industrial relations & their knowledge of the appropriate legislation should equally enable them to deal with Unions as well as individuals or non unionised employees.

61% of MNC's have some degree of contact with Unions & a large portion of our larger indigenous Irish firms are unionised , such large firms find it easier to deal with pay on a collective basis.

 

[Chris]

On the contrary I believe that any HR person worth their salt would have no problem in dealing with Unions - their knowledge of the nuances of industrial relations & their knowledge of the appropriate legislation should equally enable them to deal with Unions as well as individuals or non unionised employees.

Before you posted this I decided to pop over to our HR department, a large MNC, and find out what they thought of mandatory union recognition. Their immediate reaction was that it would result in initial hiring of consultants to deal with unions and train HR staff, so that blows that theory out of the water.

61% of MNC's have some degree of contact with Unions & a large portion of our larger indigenous Irish firms are unionised , such large firms find it easier to deal with pay on a collective basis.

And they only deal with unions when they want to, not when they are forced to do so for every possible matter. Companies do not need unions to help them find the right levels of pay for their staff, this is pure nonsense.

 

[Deiseblue]

Before you posted this I decided to pop over to our HR department, a large MNC, and find out what they thought of mandatory union recognition. Their immediate reaction was that it would result in initial hiring of consultants to deal with unions and train HR staff, so that blows that theory out of the water.


And they only deal with unions when they want to, not when they are forced to do so for every possible matter. Companies do not need unions to help them find the right levels of pay for their staff, this is pure nonsense.

Hardly , it may have been their immediate reaction but your HR Department must surely realise that if they are equipped to deal with employees either individually or en masse then they are equally equipped to deal with Trade Unions , they really should have more confidence in their ability - after all the legislation remains unchanged only the scenario differs.

Sounds to me more like a HR operation that simply fears the unknown.

I reiterate - a large number of companies prefer to deal with pay on a collective basis - far less hassle for them.

 

[thedaras]

Before you posted this I decided to pop over to our HR department, a large MNC, and find out what they thought of mandatory union recognition. Their immediate reaction was that it would result in initial hiring of consultants to deal with unions and train HR staff, so that blows that theory out of the water.


And they only deal with unions when they want to, not when they are forced to do so for every possible matter. Companies do not need unions to help them find the right levels of pay for their staff, this is pure nonsense.

I agree completely with this, I know several people in HR, and they ALL said dealing with the unions is extremely difficult.

They obstruct and delay and bring every little thing into a negotiation,they go way too far and are very militant.

Those who HAVE to deal with unions find them extremely difficult.

 

[Mpsox]

Those who HAVE to deal with unions find them extremely difficult.

You can't generalise, speaking as someone who deals with them on a regular basis, some are a complete waste of space for all concerned, some are superb and can make the companies life easier by managing staff expectations. It depends on the quality of the rep

 

[thedaras]

Mpsox, in case you misread what I posted;

"I know several people in HR, and they ALL said dealing with the unions is extremely difficult"

 

[Chris]

Hardly , it may have been their immediate reaction but your HR Department must surely realise that if they are equipped to deal with employees either individually or en masse then they are equally equipped to deal with Trade Unions , they really should have more confidence in their ability - after all the legislation remains unchanged only the scenario differs.

Sounds to me more like a HR operation that simply fears the unknown.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that the HR manager I talked to was merely being reactionary to a hypothetical scenario, it was more a preparation they have put in place in case this does happen.

I reiterate - a large number of companies prefer to deal with pay on a collective basis - far less hassle for them.

But those same companies will not be happy to be forced into mandatory union recognition. At the moment they can choose to deal with the union or an internal employee association on pay related issues; which one they probably don't care too much, as they know that they cannot be forced into any negotiations they don't want to.

 

[orka]

61% of MNC's have some degree of contact with Unions & a large portion of our larger indigenous Irish firms are unionised , such large firms find it easier to deal with pay on a collective basis.

Do you have any stats on how many MNCs/indigenous firms find dealing with unions to be a positive experience?

 

[Deiseblue]

Do you have any stats on how many MNCs/indigenous firms find dealing with unions to be a positive experience?

Nope , nor do I have stats on how many MNC's/indigenous firms find dealings with Unions not to be a positive experience - do you ?