Supplementary Pension question please....


I am in one of the mainstream PS schemes, I have a compulsory retirement age of 60, some of us do, our pre 1995 colleagues retired at 60 with their full pensions, we will not. Our pension is integrated with Social Welfare entitlements but our benefits remain the same as the pre 1995, something had gone amiss, we actually paid much more in contributions than our pre 1995 counterparts, yet we are being treated differently. We are being made to jump through hoops, sign on the dole, apply for a "supplementary" pension, despite the fact that we have paid all our contributions and worked the required service to be eligible for the very same pension.
 
hunter1 said:
I am in one of the mainstream PS schemes, I have a compulsory retirement age of 60,
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You probably don't want to say your sector but I guess Garda, Prison Officer or Psychiatric Nurse? Only limited categories have compulsory retirement at 60 and full pension with 30 years service. I am not familiar with these schemes - but "integration" means "integration".

Anyway - best of luck with it!.
 

I am getting the sense that you are considering a campaign for PS workers' pension rights !

When do we want it? Now!
 

I am one of the sectors you refer to, I don't understand what you mean by "integration" means "integration"? Perhaps you can elaborate?

To clarify, while we do 30 years' service, we pay 40 years' contributions as we double up after 20 years.

So in my case, I will have paid 40 years' contributions in the public sector, plus 12 years in the private sector - 52 years of contributions to be left with a significant shortfall in my pension that requires me, on "retiring", to sign on the dole.

All I can tell you is that I was informed by my employer, that as long as I am in receipt of any form of PRSI benefit, then I will not be able to make an application for the supplementary payment until I exhaust that benefit. My PRSI cannot be short because I have worked and paid 42 years of Class A PRSI stamps. I am fully insured and I had that confirmed by the Department of Social Protection, there are no gaps in my PRSI. When I am forced to retire I will be entitled to full PRSI benefits, and in that case, I will not be able to make an application for the supplementary until my entitlements are exhausted and I have to say, that I am now being forced to run down that entitlement, not because I am "unemployed" but because I "retired". It's just bizarre.
 
Early Riser said:
I am getting the sense that you are considering a campaign for PS workers' pension rights !

When do we want it? Now!
Click to expand...

Again with the flippancy. If you sign up to terms and conditions and they clearly state that you will be in receipt of a specific pension when you fulfill your obligations, to then find out that you will not receive those benefits is no laughing matter. The shortfall in my pension is a considerable amount of money, it is no joke to discover this 5 years before I retire. I based my retirement plans on the pension that I believed I would receive. This will have a significant effect on my life. I paid considerable amounts in PRSI, my personal pension contribution, then we were hit ( like everyone) with the USC, we were also hit with the pension-related deduction and on top of that the employer contribution, this is not something that we did not contribute to.
 
hunter1 said:
I am one of the sectors you refer to, I don't understand what you mean by "integration" means "integration"? Perhaps you can elaborate?
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Integration (or "coordination") means a pension scheme that takes account of benefits payable under the Social Welfare system to calculate the amount of pension payable from the scheme, so that the combined pension from both sources (Occupational Pension and PRSI Social Welfare) is at the level aimed for the scheme's design. So a pension of 40/80 for full service means the combined Social Welfare entitlement and the Occupational Pension together amount to 40/80. Therefore, the Occupational Pension itself would pay 40/80 minus the Social Welfare payment.

The Supplementary Pension was brought in to cover those situations in which a retiree, through no fault of their own, does not qualify for a Social Welfare payment (such as between 60 and State Pension age, when the scheme allows for retirement at 60). For those who have reached the State Pension age, the relavant Social Welfare payment is usually the State Pension. But it can be another payment, such as Jobseekers Benefit (or Illness Benefit, inthe case of ill-health retirement).

The other factor in Integration is that contributions to the scheme are also adjusted to take account of Social Welfare (contribitions are adjusted to take account of full Class A PRSI rate).

These integration terms apply to post 1995 PS schemes.
 
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As I stated, I am entitled to and I qualify for every PRSI entitlement and I had that confirmed by the Department of Social Protection. I have worked and paid full Class A PRSI stamp, every year since I entered into the workforce. On making queries to my employer, they have categorically advised that in this case, I may not make any application for the supplementary payment until I exhaust those entitlements.
 

I am a bit lost now - and this really is my last post!

Of course you qualify for PRSI entitlements. And, as a member of an "integrated" public service pension scheme you must apply for any entitlement for which you qualify. Your 40/80 takes account of this. You do not get 40/80 plus your Welfare payment. If you do not apply for a Welfare payment your Occupational Pension will not top this amount up for you. You can be topped up by way of a Supplementary Pension in the event of you not qualifying for a Social Welfare entitlement (eg. when Jobseekers runs out). When you get to State Pension age you must apply for that and the Supplementary will stop.

As regards, the difference between the Social Welfare Payment and the applicable level of Supplementary, my understanding is that the retiree can get a reduced Supplementary to make up the deficit (this is not frequently the situation). However, perhaps I am mistaken. I suggest you check with your union.
 
Well, I just came here trying to find information and of course, I spoke to the union and the pension department and they don't have the answers either. I do not expect any social welfare payment on top of my 40/80ths, I am being told that I have to apply for JSB when I retire to bring me up to 40/80ths.

But there's still a shortfall and when I asked about this I was told I could not apply for the supplementary pension while being in receipt of JSB because one of the conditions of that payment is that you are not in receipt of social welfare.

This brings me to my next conundrum, another condition of the supplementary payment is that I am not allowed to work and pay a Class A stamp while in receipt of the supplementary payment and when I reach state pension age, this payment stops.

However, in order for me to be eligible for the state pension then I have to have paid Class A PRSI stamps and on going through this process I realised that I won't have paid any PRSI stamps from the age of 60.
 
hunter1 said:
However, in order for me to be eligible for the state pension then I have to have paid Class A PRSI stamps and on going through this process I realised that I won't have paid any PRSI stamps from the age of 60.
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As you have 5 years to go to retirement at 60 and you will have 42 years of Class A PRSI at that stage (as I understand it), this is unlikely to be a problem for you. The qualifying criteria for the State Pension are expected to be revised - it will not be this year now but most likely within the next year or two. We won't know the final details until then but it looks like it will be a total lifetime contributions approach, and that 40 years worth of "stamps" (a proportion of which can be credited) will be sufficient for a full State Pension. So you won't need more.

As things stand under the current arrangements, you would get Class A credits during the 9 months of JB (if this is the route you go down and the JB is granted). If the DEASP grant you the JB you should be able to remain "signed on" for credits only after payments end.
 

It's still highly unsatisfactory. If you are retired, you are retired. That means you should have the freedom to do what the hell you like.
You should not be constrained to sign on, or attend a social welfare office every month.
Can you spend your winters in the canary islands, or go on the three month cruise world trip you dreamt about all your working life, or even pack your bags for good and head off to the south of France?
 

Absolutely, it is absurd that on retiring that you're expected to go through these hoops to get the very same entitlement as colleagues who joined before 1995.

I was at a retirement due recently and bumped into 3 or 4 retired colleagues, all in receipt of the full 40/80ths, all of whom are now working and earning an income and they didn't make any contributions to their pension, no Class A stamps, no personal pension contribution, for their last years in the job they paid the pension-related deduction and that was it.
 


Hi Allpartied, I understand what you are saying. But once you get your Supplementary you can go wherever you like. Still, this may seem unfavourable relative to the pre-1995s. But the post 2004s will look on it enviously. And the Single Schemers even more so. It is whether you see the glass as half full or half empty. Make the most of it, in my opinion.
 
this may be causing issues as some social welfare offices are more stringent that others for the 9 months of jobseekers (courses etc), would have to agree with Early Riser those post 04 and single scheme look on in envy.
 

Not much solidarity in the Irish Public sector. I'm not doing as well as those guys ( the pre 95's), but I'm better off than those schmucks in the post 04 scheme and as for the losers in the Single Scheme, well lucky me.

If workers in this country don't get together, with their unions, and defend their rights, no-one else will.

The French would be burning the place down if this was done to them.
 
allaround said:
this may be causing issues as some social welfare offices are more stringent that others for the 9 months of jobseekers (courses etc), would have to agree with Early Riser those post 04 and single scheme look on in envy.
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This is somewhat speculative on my part but if the DEASP officer denied payment of the JB (because they saw the person as not genuinely available for, or seeking, work), and they are not eligible for any other SW payment, then the person could apply directly for the Supplementary. The non-payment of Social Welfare woud be "for reasons outside of his/her control". Of course, they would have to forgo whatever PRSI credits they might otherwise have received but some people may not need them or see this as an acceptable trade off. (They will not lose out on their entitlements under the Pension Scheme as a result but their State Pension may not be maxed). This course may appeal to some people.

As I say, this is speculative on my part. Anybody interested may want to check with their union.

The conditions state:

Supplementary pension may be paid where the retiree:
(a)is not employed in any capacity which involves the payment of a PRSI contribution (including self employment), and

(b)due to circumstances outside his/her control, fails to qualify for the following Social Welfare benefits or qualifies for such benefits at less than the maximum personal rate:
Jobseeker’s Benefit
Illness Benefit
Invalidity Pension
State Pension (Contributory)
 
"(b)due to circumstances outside his/her control, fails to qualify for the following Social Welfare benefits "

I wouldn't imagine that failing to abide by SW rules which state you must look for work and you don't, that this could be considered as "outside" your control.

You either comply with those rules or you don't, if you have the entitlement and you don't claim it then that is on you, why should the employer pay any supplementary pension if this is the case.
 

I don't think it is at all as clear cut as that. It is not my sector, but here is an extract from a PNA document on eligibility for the Supplementary :

"In essence to qualify you must:

Be a Class A PRSI Contributor
Be age 60 (55 for those registered under Section 65 Mental Treatment Act 1945),
Not be employed in any gainful capacity
Not be in receipt of any social welfare payment, or, be in receipt of a reduced benefit only. You will be required to produce evidence from the Department of Social Welfare either that you are not entitled to any payment or only entitled to payment at reduced rates of any social welfare benefit.
Establish that you are not entitled to Disability /Disablement benefit/ Invalidity pension, if retiring on the grounds of ill health.
Establish that you are not entitled to jobseekers benefit (previously unemployment benefit). This will require you to apply but if you are retired and not actively seeking employment you must state that fact, in which case, job seekers benefit will most likely be declined."

ENTITLEMENT TO SUPPLEMENTARY PENSION - The PNA - The Psychiatric Nurses Association of Ireland

The Psychiatric Nurses Association PNA is a Professional Association and Trade Union.
www.pna.ie

As this is in a guideline for their membership about eligibility for the Supplementary and how to claim it, I think it suggests that, in their opinion, a person turned down for JB and any other Welfare payment would have an entitlement. The document is obviously some years old as the reference to the Transition Pension and rates of pay are out of date.
 
Yes, I see that, but it won't be declined because you don't have PRSI entitlement to it, it will be declined because you refused to abide by the rules of the scheme.

I really don't think that it's going to matter in the end to be honest, I mean when (and I don't have a choice in the matter as it stands now), I have to sign on I will make myself available for work, for 9 months anyway.

It just seems to be a very convoluted way for me to obtain my full pension and even on doing so, there will still be a shortfall that I can't recover anywhere and specifically not in the form of any supplementary pension as your link shows:

"Not be in receipt of any social welfare payment, or, be in receipt of a reduced benefit only. You will be required to produce evidence from the Department of Social Welfare either that you are not entitled to any payment or only entitled to payment at reduced rates of any social welfare benefit. "
 
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