State pension averaging rules implication on pension amount at retirement age

This was correct in former times when you had only the average calculation system. We have the TCA system as well now- and under that calculation there is no average calculation anymore. If you have 2080 contributions by the time you reach 66, you will get the full pension!
 

Are you 100% certain of that? If so, can you please link me to where exactly in the Operational Guidelines this is stated?

I had understood that an applicant could withdraw their application if they were dissatisfied with the amount of pension awarded, and perhaps, work for a further year or pay an additional year's Voluntary Contributions* in order to increase their yearly average.

* According to Citizens Information "You can pay voluntary contributions if you are aged between 66 and 70, as long as you were born after 1 January 1958 and you do not get the State Pension (Contributory)."

EDIT: I have just read your latest thread [https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threa...arding-a-persons-contributory-pension.237446/] which addresses this issue from a wider perspective and I completely agree with you nd others that it's completely unsatisfactory.
In our case, the Department has informed my spouse that as its records don't show an exact date of entry into employment for her it is unable to inform her how many PECs she is entitled to. This could make all the difference to her yearly average, which is currently hovering around a band-threshold of 19.5! It appears that the onus is on her to prove when exactly in 1979 she started working (a student summer job) which seems ridiculous.
 
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Forumuser said:
You still would have worked as a student in 1968. Nobody at that age thinks of the pension- it is far far away! Besides- even if you would have known the rules you would have been unable to know how your life developed after your student job!
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but did that average contribution system exist back in 1968, I doubt it, Id say the system was way more restrictive back then and I doubt the poor ireland of 1968 could afford to give a full pension to someone with only 10 years of contributions. What I would like to know is how did this system ever come about and why?
 
Marsupial said:
Are you 100% certain of that? If so, can you please link me to where exactly in the Operational Guidelines this is stated?
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I emailed DSP two days ago and asked...

"If after applying can a person cancel their pension application if the calculated pension is not at the level they were expecting ?

If they are not allowed to cancel, can they request the actual level of pension they will receive before they apply ?"


This is the reply I got....

"A pension cannot be deferred once it goes into payment.

It is not possible to do forecasts. Once we have a completed application, we have confirm contributions and credited contributions."


I my case I applied for my pension 3 months in advance and the only reply from DSP was a few days before my 66th birthday last January. It stated that my pension was approved and detailed the amount and the start date (a few days later).


This wording is included in the pension award notice...
You can appeal if you think the calculation is incorrect. No mention of being allowed to cancel the pension if you want to change your mind and reapply later.


"If you consider this decision is incorrect, there are a number of options available to
you:
• You have a right to request a review of this decision by a Deciding Officer by
contacting this office with any further documentary evidence you think is relevant
to your case.
• You also have a right to appeal this decision directly to the independent Chief
Appeals Officer at: Social Welfare Appeals Office, FREEPOST, D'Olier Street,
Dublin 2, D02 XY31 or by email to: swappeals@welfare.ie. More information on
how to do this is available at:
Lo-Call: 0818 200 400 (Rep. of Ireland only) Int:00353-71-9157100 Fax: 071-9148352
www.socialwelfareappeals.ie/your_appeal/how_to_make_appeal/
• OR you can pursue both a review and an appeal of the Decision separately.
IMPORTANT: The statutory time-limit for submitting an Appeal is within 21 days of this
Decision(i.e. this letter). Failure to submit an appeal in a timely manner may result in
non-acceptance of your appeal. If you wish to seek a review before you appeal, it is
important that you do so as soon as possible".
 
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Forumuser said:
I was told by the pension office in Sligo that you do not have to take it. You get an award alright- but you can refuse and withdraw your claim.
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Anybody can refuse to accept their pension if they don't like the amount.
You can say you are withdrawing your claim.
But did he confirm that DSP would allow you to make a new pension claim ?
 
But if you were made redundant in the basket case economy of the 80s and left before returning when things picked up maybe even twenty years later, you're screwed because your average is hit by all those blank years in the middle of your record.
Is that right?
That can't be fair.
 

Hello,
Yes, there are three conditions to get a State Pension.

(1) start paying SI before age 55/56
(2) have 520 fully paid up contributions
(3) THE THIRD CONDITION IS THE TRICKY CONDITION

this is known as the average condition, soon to be replaced by TCA.

You must have an average of 48 weeks SI contributions, across your working life.
 
S class said:
Anybody can refuse to accept their pension if they don't like the amount.
You can say you are withdrawing your claim.
But did he confirm that DSP would allow you to make a new pension claim ?
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Yes- the person I spoke to confirmed that. You can always refuse to accept a pension offer and withdraw your application. You must do that as soon as you have received the offer. If you wait until you received the first payment on your account, this option is lo longer available. You accepted the offer by accepting the money.

In withdrawing your pension application after you got the offer you get a perfect analysis of your pension situation. The pension office had a look at your facts and figures and made a decision. That way the pension office answers all the questions you had in the past about your situation. As they always say: "We can only answer your questions when your hand in your application!"
This is your chance to improve your record- you can keep working to bring your PRSI credit across a certain level to increase your pension. Or you can make voluntary contributions- if you qualify for that.
I know it is a ridiculous way to find out information the pension people won't tell you if you ask them. And it is a time wasting way for everybody- for the pension folks, for the applicant- and for those, who are waiting in the queue to get their application dealt with.
The way the government handles questions and advice about the pension needs an urgent change- as you rightly state in a different post!
 
Unfortunately it is the way the cookie crumbles...
 
Interesting. I have emailed this question to DSP.
 
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Thanks Protocol, s class and forumuser.
Let me preface what follows by saying that I consider myself fortunate.
When I retire, I will receive 85% of the full State Pension despite only contributing 70% of 2080 contributions, ie 1456.
However there are people who will have accumulated a greater number of contributions over their lifetime who will receive
a smaller pension than me.
That should not, in fairness, be possible.
Moreover, many of these are people who were forced to emigrate on account of the economic mismanagement of the country and to some degree corruption, by the Government.
Further, by the nature of things, we are talking about relatively ancient contributions.
By any measure of value, older contributions should enhance a pension rather than diminish it on account of the effect of compound interest.
Surely if we live in a country where fairness should prevail, this should be challenged in the courts
 
jimmij said:
Surely if we live in a country where fairness should prevail
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Unfortunately fairness very often doesn't prevail in Ireland.
What's fair about spending Irish tax payers money to fight a court case to argue that Apple should pay almost zero tax on it's Irish profits.
 
AFAIK, before TCA, the system is not "linear or proportionate".

TCA seems much more proportionate.

For example, a French guy could land here aged 54, get a job, start paying PRSI at age 54, pay PRSI for 12 years, and get a full pension at age 66, as their average would be 52 weeks.

TCA would stop this, and would give the person with 12 years SI conts a pension worth 12/40 of the full pension.
 
S class said:
Unfortunately fairness very often doesn't prevail in Ireland.
What's fair about spending Irish tax payers money to fight a court case to argue that Apple should pay almost zero tax on it's Irish profits.
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True and the Irish Government ultimately lost in their dodgy endeavour.
And in the case of state pensions , the interpretation used of "Average contributions" also seems bizarre to me.
It's like as if an athlete had taken part in 2 Olympiads eight years apart, in each of which his time was 10s for the 100m.
However, having missed the Games in between the two he competed in, his offical record gave his average time over 100m as (10 + 10)/3 or 6.67s

Is the unusual interpretation the State Pensions people have of what the word 'average' means written into legislation somewhere?
If anyone knows can they kindly point me to it?
 

But if you "left" then the assumption is that you went somewhere else to find employment and had the opportunity to generate social welfare benefits, including a pension, in that other country.
Your alternative was to remain here, sign on, and receive reckonable credits towards your Irish State pension. It's a tad unrealistic to expect a CONTRIBUTORY Pension System to reward people who - for whatever reason - chose to move abroad and thereby stop contributing.
 
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A friend in US has 440 cons before emigrating in mid 90s.She is wondering if US cons can be used to reach 520 treshold for minimum pension.She has been told yes and no by DSP. Would anyone know if after using US cons to get US pension, these same US cons can then be used to get pro rata contributory here. Would seem kinda generous but latest from Sligo is that this is how it currently works ie. get your US pension and then use US cons to get over 520 threshold, and qualify for small pro rata Irish pension.
 
S class said:
What's fair about spending Irish tax payers money to fight a court case to argue that Apple should pay almost zero tax on it's Irish profits.
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The State was fighting to defend the integrity of its taxation system. It it was me, rather than Apple, that had availed of the tax breaks that Ireland offered, only to have subsequently been dumped on by a vindictive Commissioner, then I would expect the State to defend me a strongly as it tried to defend Apple in this instance.
 
but when and why was the average contribution system ever introduced, the poor impoversished country that existed up the 1980s could never have afforded such a system, even people that don't qualify for a full state pension are still being very generously dealt with getting a far higher pension than their contributions warranted.
 
You're right actually come to think of it. I think I've been looking through the wrong end of the telescope, so to speak.
A more pertinent question might be to ask how it arose that people could get more than their total contributions would entitle them to.
A system that unfairly benefits some people makes those treated fairly feel like victims.
Worse, the 520 contributions threshold is utterly egregious
 
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