State Funeral for Haughey

it wasn't corruption, it could never be shown where he did a political favour for anyone for money
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Ah yes, the Bart Simpson defence - I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, can't prove anything!

Jem, you honestly must be the most trusting person of all time if you genuinely think Haughey did nothing in return for those monies he received, while in the midst of the cesspool of corruption and illegal behaviour that so characterised the Irish business and political establishment of the Haughey era.
 
Chamar said:
Anyone else disagree that corrupt politicians should be honoured in this way?
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Just for the record

1. CJH was never convicted of corruption by a court.

2. Two extensive tribunals into his affairs have yet to uncover a single shred of evidence of corruption on his part.

Personally, I would be far more appalled by his involvement in arming the IRA at the outset of a bloody sectarian "war" in the North in 1969/70 (leading directly & indirectly to over 3,000+ murders) than the bungs he received from various rich guys. People have a bizarre scale of priorities in this country.
 
CJH was never convicted of corruption by a court.
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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

2. Two extensive tribunals into his affairs have yet to uncover a single shred of evidence of corruption on his part.
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Tribunals he frustrated and refused to co-operate with. Hardly the actions of a man with nothing to hide.

I'd have some respect for him if, even at the end of the day, he was man enough to stand up and be counted and let it be known for the public record what happened and what didn't. But he wasn't even able to do that. Coward.
 
Dearg Doom said:
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
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Good job it wasn't you they asked to sign the Magna Carta.

Dearg Doom said:
Tribunals he frustrated and refused to co-operate with. Hardly the actions of a man with nothing to hide.
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I have a big problem with Tribunals. No one can ever come out of it with their reputation intact. There is no verdict and therefore no vindication (or conviction). Accusations can be made with impunity and the accused has no comeback. In my opinion is damages the legal system and shows up the inability of the police to investigate complex crimes.

ubiquitous said:
Two extensive tribunals into his affairs have yet to uncover a single shred of evidence of corruption on his part.
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I think there may have been a few shreds...
 
Purple said:
I have a big problem with Tribunals. No one can ever come out of it with their reputation intact. There is no verdict and therefore no vindication (or conviction).
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Whilst there is no verdict, that being outside their remit, the Flood tribunal has published several reports which state that on the balance of probabilities x,y,z were involved in corrupt activity.
Re Haughey and his tribunals, we should wait until Moriarty publish his final report.
As for the gun running, it's one of the few things I respect about the man, it's a very simplistic view to take that his interaction with the IRA, or indeed the existence of the IRA led to the deaths of 3000 people, perhaps they saved a genocidal type massacre?? What is true is that NI nationalist population could not rely on their own government/policeforce to protect them from deathsquads - there was a need for protectors, so the IRA re-armed.
 
I'm surprised at the question, that should never be asked, He was a leader of the state and like all others that led the state they get a state funeral, regardless of how he done it and so will Garreth, Bertie,and the 2 Marys,as will Meterion,Cole Thather,or whoever leads a country, and remember we elected him and we had 30 years to put him out of power but we didn't, O by the way he did convince Smith and Meterion that Ireland was another underdeveloped country that needed to be added to that list and hence Ireland has got 300 billion in handouts from the EU. Check it out.
 
Someone else in a different position - i.e. head of a large multinational, would not have gotten the breaks that charlie got for his ''shortcommings''

Its fair enough that you forgive a politician for mistakes but cj's were not mistakes, they were calculated and for his own or his cronies benifit.

His ''ill health'' that semed to start around the time of all the stories comming out conveniently flared up every time more questions arose.

And dont tell me -- oh he must have been sick because he's dead now -- He was ill but he always looked healthy enough (for years) on his yacht for pictures
 
Ireland has got 300 billion in handouts from the EU
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I sincerely doubt that Ireland has received 300 billion, or three times the EU's annual budget, since we joined the EU. I also sincerely doubt that Haughey was solely responsible for any perceived largesse on the part of the EU. Shure didn't Albert 'win us' 8 billion?

Edited to add: upon checking, Finfacts.com lists Ireland as having received €34bn in the period since joining to 2004.
 
ClubMan said:
I consider tax evasion and misleading tribunals forms of corruption myself.
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I dont agree as is my choice.
Ub,
I disagree with you with regard to the gunrunning.
First of all he was cleared of all charges and secondly if he wasn't guilty he should have been. what was going on was unreal remember at one stage the govt was on the brink of invading NI due to the butchering of the minority at the time.
 
Not giving CJH would be dishonouring the post of taoiseach, DeV got a state funeral and he lead a civil war against the government.....
 
contemporary said:
Not giving CJH would be dishonouring the post of taoiseach, DeV got a state funeral and he lead a civil war against the government.....
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Ah yes I agree - but fighting for or against your country is different than ripping them off
 
bazermc said:
Ah yes I agree - but fighting for or against your country is different than ripping them off
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How did CJH rip off the country? Tax evasion - yes. But then there was eventually a settlement of those liabilities. You seem to be implying that he dipped into public funds as opposed to FF funds and Brian Lenihan's liver transplant fund. Care to substantiate such insinuations/allegations?
 

According to Fintan O'Toole - the liberal conscience of the nation - CJH 'dipped into public funds' insofar as the FF leader expense account.

"Since most of the money was other people's (including in the case of the Charvet and Le Coq Hardi bills that of the plain people of Ireland)"
 
That's rubbish on the part of FO'T. The funds were those of a political party donated by supporters/benefactors. Dipping into these is not the same as dipping into state (i.e. Exchequer) funds. I'm not saying that dipping into such funds is right and proper but to equate it to ripping off the state is simply nonsensical.
 
ClubMan said:
That's rubbish on the part of FO'T..
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Himself and Tom McGurk had a 'ding dong do' on Dunphy's programme this morning, but it's not on the podcast. If I heard him correctly, and my mind tends to wander when he's pontificating, that was his assertion - namely that the party leader's account is centrally/publicly funded.
 
Speaking of the bold Fintan I thought his article in the Irish Times was mean spirited and be-grudging, even by his standards. Even Geraldine Kennedy, who’s phone he (or his government) bugged was more balanced. Mr O’Toole once said in an RTE interview that the day CJ left politics was the best day of his life. How sad for him.
 
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