State Funeral for Haughey

[jem]

Jem, you're entitled to your opinion, but in all honesty to suggest that he did'nt take anything from the masses and that there's nothing wrong with having his personal life funded by his friends are not accurate statements. The questions you have to ask are "why did his friends fund his lifestyle" (George Colley seemed to know the answer to that), and "were there situations where he looked after the welfare of his friends' above the welfare of the people in taking decisions".
He may have started off well, and his best work was undoubtedly done in the 60's, but as they say, power corrupts, and it did a particularly fine job on this occasion.

george colly was a political opponant of cj, he wanted the job that cj got.
cj's friends did fund his lifestyle , dermott desmond stated recently that if cj needed money now he would give it to him long after he departed the political life, ben dunne stated that in his opinion he and others were willing to fund cj's lifestyle and allow cj to consentrate on running the country which he was doing exceptionally well.you seem to forget the celtic tiger, the ifsc etc etc all in the 80's.

 

[Art]

I for one will be proud to sit and watch the Funeral and will be sending a mass card to his family.

Jem,

Will you be sending the mass card in a brown envelope???

 

[Glenbhoy]

ben dunne stated that in his opinion he and others were willing to fund cj's lifestyle and allow cj to consentrate on running the country which he was doing exceptionally well.you seem to forget the celtic tiger, the ifsc etc etc all in the 80's.

jem, see my previous post on the 'great job' he was doing running the country. Why, I wonder did certain builders have such a great relationship with the 'boss', I wonder did they get any planning permissions to tear down great swathes of Georgian Dublin, rebuild with monstrosities equalled in their ugliness only by Ballymun flats, said monstrosities then being rented by various government departments on long term leases? I wonder?

 

[Sherman]

The man is dead and hasn't even been buried yet and I just think that it's a nasty trait being displayed by a lot of Irish at the moment and everyone seems to be nit-picking at his bones already. Surely it's a debate which should be left for future days.

Weak, weak argument. Typical of our revisionism of when a public figure dies. Noelle Campbell Sharpe was on the same buzz this morning, stating we have a long tradition in this country of respecting a deceased person's wife and family.

CJH showed a whole heap of respect for his wife and family when he was cavorting publicly about town with a certain journalist for 27 years, didn't he?

The greatest respect we can pay a dead public figure is to debate and appraise his legacy and person openly, instead of effectively lying through our teeth out of 'respect' for the dead and their families.

 

[bb12]

effectively lying through our teeth out of 'respect' for the dead and their families

I don't see how paying respect for the dead requires anyone to 'lie'. I think a debate about a person's contribution to society would be far more balanced if he was conducted in a calm and fair manner. From some of the comment's I've read, it almost feels like some people are looking for a witch hunt! If i were a child or grandchild of him, I'd be pretty upset by some of the downright nastiness being publicly expressed.

I'm not really concerned who he was cavorting around town with for years as in my opinion that was his personal life and has nothing to do with the public. Nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors.

 

[Duplex]

Corruption gnaws away at the soul of a society and impoverishes its citizenry. You have to look no further than Argentina before and after Peron to understand the damage corruption can cause. As a nation we owe it to future generations to root out the treachery of corruption in high office, quickly and clinically.

 

[Sherman]

Like I said, I find it hard to show 'respect' for a deceased's living relatives when that deceased showed feck all respect for them when he was alive.

If I were a child or grandchild of his, I'd be pretty upset at the fact that he took illicit millions through the years from various sources, never declaring a cent of it, and obstructing every legitimate enquiry by journalists and more importantly the organs of the state.

 

[Art]

Corruption gnaws away at the soul of a society and impoverishes its citizenry. You have to look no further than Argentina before and after Peron to understand the damage corruption can cause. As a nation we owe it to future generations to root out the treachery of corruption in high office, quickly and clinically.

I agree 100%. The only thing unfortunate about his death is that it did not happen in Mountjoy.

 

[bb12]

Charlie laid the seeds of the Celtic tiger. He didn't run the country into the ground like some other political parties almost did when they were in government. Whatever he did, he always believed he was doing it for the good of the country. We're now one of the richest countries in the world, so I don't see how we can be compared with Argentina. He didn't try to screw the people over. At one point he resisted all recommendations to reduce social welfare payments and instead introduced free travel and electricity allowances for older people. Unlike other corrupt societies he wasn't doing any harm to the economy. He was strengthening it.

 

[Sherman]

He didn't run the country into the ground like some other political parties almost did when they were in government.

Erm, wasn't Haughey a Minister in the 1977 Fianna Fail government, which, in its efforts to buy that election, did its very best to run the country into the ground? Hasn't Fianna Fail been in power for 55 of the last 74 years? How on earth can you possibly make the point above? It is akin to me shooting someone, then reviving him, and taking the credit for saving his life

 

[Duplex]

Argentina was once one of the richest countries in the world also and to suggest that Haughey was responsible for the Celtic Tiger is utter nonsense I'm afraid to say. The ending of the cold war, the opening of global markets that resulted, the deflationary recession in Japan and the resultant flooding of world markets with cheap money have much more to do with this phenomena than Mr Haughey. But why seek the truth when we can feed the Irish populace with homespun fairy tales.

Might I add that I believe that a conspiracy exists to keep Irish people ignorant of not only the facts but a suitable education with which to analyse these facts. The paper Tiger is now built on debt, debt not on productivity or innovation or domestic manufacturing but debt.

rant over

 

[Glenbhoy]

He didn't run the country into the ground like some other political parties almost did when they were in government.

Yes, he did actually.

We're now one of the richest countries in the world, so I don't see how we can be compared with Argentina.

As was Argentina in the past century.

Whatever he did, he always believed he was doing it for the good of the country.

Maybe back in the mid-60's, not thereafter.

Unlike other corrupt societies he wasn't doing any harm to the economy. He was strengthening it.

If anyone actually believes that, I despair. How can corruption not damage society? By definition it must, otherwise it would not be corruption.

 

[bb12]

I wasn't saying corruption wouldn't harm society. What I meant is that Charlie did not actually steal from the public funds so to speak. He received donations from friends etc. Whereas in most other corrupt societies they _are_ actually stealing form the state money. Maybe instead of blaming Charlie for all our woes in the depression of the 80s and buying his Charvet shirts, we should instead be turning the focus onto the likes of Ben Dunne and ask why were they making such huges profits at the expense of people at that time?

 

[jem]

bb12,
I would sugest that you don't bodder replying more, I will not. the fact is that you wont win with above, they are blind to all the good that charlie did, they cannot see that he was the second best leader this country ever had after sean lemass, they hate the thoughts that history has turned and is starting to ignore the indiscrssions and look at the big picture which will show what a great leader he was, how much good he did for this country, how we would never have had the growth we have had without his hard desissions, how the fg/lab govt of 83/87 led by garrett the good tribbled the national debt in 4 years. they wont listen. the crowd's that turn out on friday will be a testiment to him.
may the lord have mercy on him.

 

[redbhoy]

Might I add that I believe that a conspiracy exists to keep Irish people ignorant of not only the facts but a suitable education with which to analyse these facts.

I concur.

Jem,bb12- I have no affiliation with any parties and I see good and bad in everything.
Haughey did great things for this country. But why did he have to take "donations" form buddies to help them along and make them into multi millionaires. Maybe there were more decent builders etc who deserved a shot?? I agree with the person who says the eye should be put onto the likes of Ben Dunne and how they made money off the back of ordinary workers.

 

[Glenbhoy]

we should instead be turning the focus onto the likes of Ben Dunne and ask why were they making such huges profits at the expense of people at that time?

His friends were who exactly? Who funded him? What about tax evasion? Some people would possibly see that as 'taking from the public purse'.

 

[elcato]

But why did he have to take "donations" form buddies to help them along and make them into multi millionaires.

Yeah - Imagine having friends like that. I'd never hang around anyone who would let me do that to them.

 

[bb12]

But why did he have to take "donations" form buddies to help them along and make them into multi millionaires.

I agree. I have no affiliations with any political parties either. And i too think it is a shame that he was flawed in this sense. If he had managed to stay 'clean', he would still have been able to do what he did politically for the good of the country and instead of being blasted today, he would be branded a saint.

I guess it's the human condition to be attracted and distracted by the lures of wealth and luxury. Everyone wants to buy the house in the 'right' location, wants to fill it with designer furniture and have a new car sitting in the driveway. When we all examine our own 'moral' code I really wonder if it comes up to scratch with what we believe it to be.

 

[Duplex]

Corruption is anti free market. it inhibits competition on the basis of price and quality, it results in the loss of employment, the stifling of innovation and results, in the long term, in poverty for the many and absurd wealth for the very few.

 

[jem]

it wasn't corruption, it could never be shown where he did a political favour for anyone for money. he was helped out by his friends who belived that he was teh best man to run the country and if he did that everyone would do well including them.no direct benifit just doing the right thing.
unfortunatly i cannot head up to dublin for thefuneral on friday but I will watch it with great sadness and pride.
strong blue ting with a hint of red to this topic.