Stamp Duty Debate

I think i read somewhere that the plan was to cut the higher rate from 42 to 40 and increase the bands, can anyone confirm this or is it just speculation, or did i just read a comment here earlier?

As for Ahern, I'm a fan of his alright, in that he amuses me greatly, but thats not a quality I look for in the leader of a country - we can judge the Americans for bringing bush back but we're just as bad with Bertie and I would nt bet against him next time. I would nearly rather see him get back in just so he is at the top when this property time bomb explodes, I couldnt bare to hear him gloating over the next few years if he wasnt re-elected, because within months the country would be deep in recession and he could blame it all on us for removing him from power.

I still find it amazing that there is no real alternative in this country, the qualifications, oratorical skills, basic common sense etc required to be leader are non existent all thats needed is to agree with everyone all the time...that cant be that hard can it?

As for Stamp Duty, that has become a real hot point for the budget. The funny thing was McDowell originally spoke about possibly changing it if they were re-elected (if i remember correctly), but now Cowen has to face it in the budget. With recent moves, i'd say he is likely to move on it even though he is totally against it. Berties understanding of basic economics involves understanding what is in the headlines, what they people are saying and invevitably agreeing with them.
 
TTV said:
I think i read somewhere that the plan was to cut the higher rate from 42 to 40 and increase the bands, can anyone confirm this or is it just speculation, or did i just read a comment here earlier?
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I would be very surprised if the rates are cut (and disappointed), but imagine that bands will be increased generously (if for no other reason than to correct Cowan's erroneous statement last week that people earning less than 50K do not pay tax at the top rate). IMO stamp duty will go for ftb's (up to a certain level), marginal relief around the various thresholds may also be a runner.
 
Cut income taxes and everybody wins. Simple.
Room305 I am in agreement - the teh thing is the central bank no longer have control over interest rates and any major change will push the property prices overboard.


The best thing is leave well enough alone for the time being and cut income tax.
 
Income tax cut from 42% to 41% is not a hugely expensive measure but it is benefitting top earners the most. Increasing the bands is a more equitable option all round and I've not got a vested interest in this.

I think removing SD for FTB is a terrible idea.
Problem is people are spending beyond their means, one of the only controls on their bidding is their fear of entering the next SD band.
Solution - raise the band, increase the spending, dig themselves in a little deeper.

Why should FTB get preferential treatment to a trader upper, I'm sure people who bought starter homes find it equally expensive to move but are not a vote winner. The statistics indicate that FTB pay a very small amount of SD anyway - the biggest winner if they had no SD would be the twentysomething buying a redbrick 'starter' home in D4 or D6 with family support.

I'd scrap or reduce mortgage interest relief as well, it's main beneficiaries are investors with interest only mortgages- should be a vote winner come election time. For the opposition! Big difference between politically correct decisions and correct decisions.
 
Originally posted by DirtyH2O

I think removing SD for FTB is a terrible idea.
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I couldnt agree more, that is why it is more than likely to be removed.

Originally posted by Glenbhoy
(if for no other reason than to correct Cowan's erroneous statement last week that people earning less than 50K do not pay tax at the top rate)
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I missed that, did he seriously say that? I'd love to see the results of himself or Bertie doing foundation level maths exam or first year (secondary not third level) economics.
 
TTV said:
I missed that, did he seriously say that? I'd love to see the results of himself or Bertie doing foundation level maths exam or first year (secondary not third level) economics.
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If he did i think we can say that it was a mis-quote. Ahern is an accountant and Cowen is a solictor..........i'd bet they would do better than alot here (including me) in any maths exam.

Don't get this politician bashing........
 
phoenix_n said:
If he did i think we can say that it was a mis-quote. Ahern is an accountant and Cowen is a solictor..........
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That all depends on your definition of 'accountant'. I can't help but suspect that Bertie's definition of accountant is something similar to his definition of being "educated at" the London School of Economics.
 
Glenbhoy said:
I....(if for no other reason than to correct Cowan's erroneous statement last week that people earning less than 50K do not pay tax at the top rate).
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Could he have been referring to couples earning less than €50k not paying tax at the top rate?
 
conor_mc said:
Could he have been referring to couples earning less than €50k not paying tax at the top rate?
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What i think he said but i could be wrong was that people earning 50,000 paid less than 20% tax ie. <10,000.

However as i just happen to have my paycheck in my pocket i know this to be bull**** as i've just gone over the 52,000 mark and i've already paid over 15,000 in tax and prsi.
 
phoenix_n said:
If he did i think we can say that it was a mis-quote. Ahern is an accountant and Cowen is a solictor..........i'd bet they would do better than alot here (including me) in any maths exam.

Don't get this politician bashing........
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Yeah, Ahern is an accountant - how do you make that out??
I don't mind Cowan at all and feel that he is at least competent, but his time spent as a practising solicitor was very short as he has been in the dail since he was 24.

Could he have been referring to couples earning less than €50k not paying tax at the top rate?
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No, I've been searching for the actual wording, here is the article, can't access it to recalculate, but I'll stand by my calculations last week, imo Mr. Cowan is talking a load of blather..... (as always I'm open to correction).

[broken link removed]
Opposition's tax claims 'blather' - Cowen

Some 80 per cent of workers pay tax at rates of 20 per cent or less, Minister for Finance Brian Cowen insisted in the Dáil, rejecting as "blather" Opposition claims to the contrary. Login or subscribe for more.
 
Yeah, Ahern is an accountant - how do you make that out??
I don't mind Cowan at all and feel that he is at least competent, but his time spent as a practising solicitor was very short as he has been in the dail since he was 24.
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I cant stand Ahern as a Minister and as an accountant???? (i just passed my acountancy exam online - my degree is in the post, I too am now an accountant) on the other hand I too dont really mind Cowan, as I said earlier if he moves on Stamp Duty it wont be by his choice. But if he is the Minister for Finance and he does not know the rates of tax that the average joe is on then I'm afraid I cannot see how anyone could see this as acceptable for the Minister responsible for Finance.

Originally posted by phoenix_n
Don't get this politician bashing........
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Its nothing personal, It does seem though that blatant incompetence in this country gets rewarded or at the least overlooked..

By the way, I am not politically aligned with any party and i find the alternatives in this country apalling.
 
conor_mc said:
Probably the best outcome. It would've been very easy to go the populist route, what with all the clamour from the vested interests.
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Well done Cowen, when can he replace Bertie?
 
StoppedClock said:
Well that's that, no changes.
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Here's what Cowen said today (Agrees with many posters here)

In the current market situation, any stamp duty cuts would more likely than not be incorporated into the sale price and so end up in the pocket of the seller. This will not help first-time buyers purchasing new homes.
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Here's an example he gives on how first time buyers will benefit from the tax changes:

Our firm aim is to help the first-time buyer directly and substantially, not only those who are in the market now, but also those who are already paying their first mortgages. The best way to do this is by way of mortgage interest relief. The Government therefore proposes to double the ceiling on mortgage interest relief for first-time .

As a result of this initiative for first-time buyers, a couple with a joint mortgage of up to €379,000 over 33 years, at an interest rate of 4¼ per cent, will be able to claim interest relief on the full amount of the interest on their loan. Such a couple will now gain up to €1,600 extra per year, or €133 per month, in mortgage interest relief directly credited against their mortgage bill. Single people will gain up to €800 per year, or over €66 each month. This helps existing first-time buyers who are already in their first home, as well as potential first-time buyers, without acting to inflate house prices further.
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I reckon a sizeable big chunk of the gains in this example will be wiped out by tomorrows ECB rate rise.
 
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Cowen has re-deemed himself in my estimation. I wonder if Bertie is upset that his developer friends wont now benefit from changes to stamp duty. Its good to see Cowen standing his own, at least now he cant be the one held responsible for bringing down the market. I wonder how long it will take before we get back to the original comments on stamp duty and how it may become an election issue for the PD's.

Does anyone expect an increase in house sales after christmas because this red herring has been removed? Or do you expect the VI's to harp on about the market waiting until the election to see if there are any moves on the duty then? Its good too that Cowen went into detail about the actual affect removing this duty will have. Hopefully it can be put to bed and we can all move on....
 
TTV said:
Or do you expect the VI's to harp on about the market waiting until the election to see if there are any moves on the duty then?
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Surely the EA's must be getting bored with nothing to do, how long will they stomach the standoff before throwing in the towel and getting uber bearish just to get transactions up?
 
FF's Developer Friends have nothing to worry about because of this Budget. FF will always look after their own self-interests and will do whatever it takes to stay in power.

Cowan, and his predecessors could have pricked the property bubble, if they wanted. It's obvious they did not.

The recent census showed approx 250,000 empty houses in Ireland. What does that show? Greed and an economic imbalance. I'd love to see the value of those houses halved.

A draconian tax on any more than 2 houses would have released enough property into the market to ease any price pressure, but FF failed to deliver.


And Bertie an Accountant? In his wildest dreams. He's as much an accountant as my dog!
 
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