St Kilians cheated by Leaving Cert standardisation

Delboy

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I would like to know the basis for that comment. If it means the Teachers Assessments in these schools were way ahead of their historic achievement (compared to other schools) then they deserve everything that is coming to them.
But I don't see how the IT correspondent could be privy to that information as, after all, the schools' historic results were ignored in the process.
More likely it is a reference to a far greater number of downgrades and indeed the said schools are complaining that is what happened. But according to them that is because they were standardised so as to be no better or no worse than the average school in developing students from Junior Cert to Leaving Cert, in other words paying their fees was a waste of space.
Clearly historically this is not the case as otherwise they would not have survived commercially.
He's a Journalist who has contacts in the CAO/Dept etc I'm sure. I doubt he made that up considering he was fairly emphatic in making that point
 

Duke of Marmalade

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He's a Journalist who has contacts in the CAO/Dept etc I'm sure. I doubt he made that up considering he was fairly emphatic in making that point
I am not saying he is making it up but there is great scope for ambiguity in interpreting these data.
We know that downgrading is "off the Richter scale" for the grind schools because they are screaming about it. But they have an explantion that this is due to unfair standardisation which seems plausible to me.
Readers would probably think the IT correspondent may be implying that the Teachers Assessment was "off the Richter scale" compared to other schools. I don't see that they would have the data to make that insinuation so I suspect that it is merely the former syndrome that they are citing.
 

Purple

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I am not saying he is making it up but there is great scope for ambiguity in interpreting these data.
We know that downgrading is "off the Richter scale" for the grind schools because they are screaming about it. But they have an explantion that this is due to unfair standardisation which seems plausible to me.
Readers would probably think the IT correspondent may be implying that the Teachers Assessment was "off the Richter scale" compared to other schools. I don't see that they would have the data to make that insinuation so I suspect that it is merely the former syndrome that they are citing.
The fact that Junior Cert results were used for reference is particularly unfair for those students in the grind-school type schools as they went there to improve on their junior cert results and they have had access to generally better teachers from a results perspective for the last 1 to 2 years (sorry, but that bit is true).
 

Vanessa

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I've been surprised at class numbers in the private schools I'm aware of (through in-laws and neighbours sending their kids there). The numbers seem to be close to 30 per class in those schools
30 per class but unlike the public school if Tristan acts the bollix the Principal will be on to Daddy straight away and tellhim that if the boy doesn't stop acting the bollix he's on his bike
 

Purple

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30 per class but unlike the public school if Tristan acts the bollix the Principal will be on to Daddy straight away and tellhim that if the boy doesn't stop acting the bollix he's on his bike
Wow, nasty inverted snobbery there. The same rules apply for suspension and expulsion in private and public schools.
 

cremeegg

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My daughters speak fluent English as they are native English speakers, I don't expect them to get a H1 in English when they do the Leaving.
English is taught and examined as a first (native) language for the Leaving Cert.

German French and some others are taught and examined as second languages. So a native speaker is at an advantage.

Polish, Lithuanian and some others are examined as first languages. So it is almost impossible for a non-native speaker to take these subjects.[/QUOTE]
 

Duke of Marmalade

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Ciara Kelly said:
Middle class students have been thrown under the bus

We threw out the school rankings but used class rankings - so middle-ranked kids in high-achieving schools...were marked down in large numbers to give them an 'average leaving certificate' in national terms.
This is so OTT.
Listen to the dogs that aren't barking. The well known "middle class" schools seem perfectly content with the outcome, indeed a random look up of one of the more notable reveals an improvement on last year in line with the 4.4% grade inflation. Their website boasts about improvement over 2019 in max points, over 600 points, over 500 points and over 450 points.
Let me repeat. The most any school can lose is to be standardised as to what their Junior Cert cohort would have achieved in the period JC to LC. And the max amount of standardisation was 50%, they were allowed to keep at least 50% of their own assessment.
Now most of these schools have a Junior Cert cohort already above the national average, partly because they are better schools but probably mostly because of the nature of their intake (yes, the professional and middle classes). So they only lose out to the extent that any building on that foundation in the 2/3 years between JC and LC was standardised to the national average.

Leaving St Kilians aside (that is a freak anomaly) the only protests are coming from the grind schools. They have a point if they are much better than the conventional "middle class" schools at getting their students to over achieve by reference to their Junior Cert starting point. It is difficult to believe that any such edge would be very significant.
 
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Purple

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Well said Duke. That about sums it up.
Given the circumstances I think the Department of Education and the officials within did an excellent job.
 

Duke of Marmalade

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How does this work for grind schools which do not have a JC class.
That was my original take. But in fact JC is specific to the individual not to the school. So even though a grind school might just do LC, their students would all (or mostly) have a JC. The JC is taken as the measure of the quality of the raw material and standardisation assumes that the finished product (aggregated across the school but not applied individually) relies only on the quality of the raw material and not the "manufacturing" process from JC to LC (reminder: standardisation applied at most 50%).
Surely the Gaelscoileanna have the same problem.
It doesn't appear to be nearly as stark. One explanation that I have heard which seems plausible is that the pupils at these schools, whilst they might have a home culture of encouraging As Gaelige the vast majority would have their first language as English and their competency in Irish could not be in any way compared with the what a native German would have in her first language.
 
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SPC100

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I still predict that overall Irish schools will benefit. As they would be expected to have higher than national average Irish jc results, and Irish is one of the 5 measured subjects that are input into the prediction.

I expect their Irish results would be lower than normal as they would be pulled towards the national distribution.
 

Peanuts20

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This is so OTT.
Listen to the dogs that aren't barking. The well known "middle class" schools seem perfectly content with the outcome, indeed a random look up of one of the more notable reveals an improvement on last year in line with the 4.4% grade inflation. Their website boasts about improvement over 2019 in max points, over 600 points, over 500 points and over 450 points.
Let me repeat. The most any school can lose is to be standardised as to what their Junior Cert cohort would have achieved in the period JC to LC. And the max amount of standardisation was 50%, they were allowed to keep at least 50% of their own assessment.
Now most of these schools have a Junior Cert cohort already above the national average, partly because they are better schools but probably mostly because of the nature of their intake (yes, the professional and middle classes). So they only lose out to the extent that any building on that foundation in the 2/3 years between JC and LC was standardised to the national average.

Leaving St Kilians aside (that is a freak anomaly) the only protests are coming from the grind schools. They have a point if they are much better than the conventional "middle class" schools at getting their students to over achieve by reference to their Junior Cert starting point. It is difficult to believe that any such edge would be very significant.
Grind schools are businesses, they exist to make a profit. How many parents will be sending their kids to grind schools this year?? very few I would have thought
 

Duke of Marmalade

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How many parents will be sending their kids to grind schools this year?? very few I would have thought
True, if it has any chance of being a COVID year.
But ironically in years to come this experience could be a big selling point. Here's the strap line:
"Our school is way ahead for developing students from Junior Cert to Leaving Cert. This was starkly demonstrated during the great pandemic when we were not allowed to enjoy this superior ability and standardisation greatly penalised us. This also demonstrated how much better we are than the more commonly acclaimed schools who did not suffer like us from standardisation. If you want better than standard then we have shown that we are best placed to deliver."
 

Purple

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I find it funny that some people get all hot and bothered about Grind Schools but don't see that having a teacher as a parent gives a child a much bigger advantage. The self righteousness of people who are well educated and well able to help their children at home who criticise parents who are less well educated but work harder and spend that hard earned money leveling up their children's educational opportunities.

What's that old line that middle class socialists don't care about the poor, they just hate rich people.
 

Firefly

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Let's say I would have gotten 450 points had I sat my LC this year, but thanks to grade inflation I get 500 points but still missed out on my course of choice. Assuming that the LC is re-instated next year (or some other, more accurate way in measuring students is used), surely it would be worth my while taking a year out and just applying again next year? If a lot of people do this, it could be very unfair for the current 6 year students.....
 

Duke of Marmalade

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First Case against Standardisation
This is an Institute student who got 3 downgrades and just missed TCD medicine by 2 points.
I would suspect that in essence they have a very good case based on the arguments I have made thus far
However, this could be very hard to win in court, not least because of the danger of the flood gates opening.
 

Purple

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Let's say I would have gotten 450 points had I sat my LC this year, but thanks to grade inflation I get 500 points but still missed out on my course of choice. Assuming that the LC is re-instated next year (or some other, more accurate way in measuring students is used), surely it would be worth my while taking a year out and just applying again next year? If a lot of people do this, it could be very unfair for the current 6 year students.....
And the students from last year who took a year out with the intention of applying this year.
 
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