Solicitors.........enough work out there??

[MOB]

To what has already been posted I would add this: the overheads for a small law practice are relatively fixed. Insurance, Subscriptions, Rent, Heat and Light and Support Staff ( say two secretaries and a perhaps part time bookkeeper) will run to €80-100k in even a modest office. The solicitor who bills €150k per annum in this environment has a fairly modest income. The solicitor who increases his\her bills by 33% ( i.e to €200k) will practically double his\her income (as the overhead will not move much). So there is a big incentive to work long hours and perhaps to under-hire solicitor employees. This is just the nature of the thing (and I am not complaining about it) - but it is one of the reasons why so many solicitors work long hours and are generally stressed. But it is also the reason why even a small-ish downturn has a disproportionately large effect on the solicitor's income. Leverage has a way of biting you in a downturn and that includes staff leverage.

I second MF1's comment about billable time not being anything like the same as time spent at work - and you don't need a recession for this to be the case. About eight years ago ( in a small rural practice) I kept very diligent timesheets for a full year - even though most work was not billed by the hour. In a small mostly conveyancing practice ( I did not do any litigation at the time) the billable hours in a very busy year came to about 1,500 and the actual fees were circa 225,000 ( I can't actually remember if this was before or after Euro - I think it was Euro).

 

[Kate10]

There are very few solicitors who can charge 8/9 hours per day to a client and have it paid. Only solicitors working in large practices in specialised areas with plenty of admin support can do that. And no sole practitioners I'd imagine. I can only charge an hourly rate when I am doing high value work for a client - commercial or company work, or the odd unusual case. Most of my work is fixed fee work like conveyancing, which has a terrible return. I also spend a lot of time dealing with administrative stuff that I need to do to keep the practice going.

 

[ramble]

This thread has made me feel a bit better about my income, I was beginning to think I was the only underpaid, under-appreciated solicitor. I was chatting to a barrister today who thought that the profession would become uninsurable if the current level of indemnity claims keeps going. That's one factor missing in the discussion, Solicitors are personally liable for errors and through the compensation fund are also liable for the errors (and greed) of others. I'm not saying it is a bad thing to be responsible for the work that you do but it does add a large layer of stress to the job. I think that in the next 5-10 years the one person firm will have disappeared, the insurers will refuse cover. The work will become more specialised and pro bono will disappear.

 

[Complainer]

Support Staff ( say two secretaries and a perhaps part time bookkeeper) will run to €80-100k in even a modest office. The solicitor who bills €150k per annum in this environment has a fairly modest income. The solicitor who increases his\her bills by 33% ( i.e to €200k) will practically double his\her income (as the overhead will not move much).

Wouldn't the admin staff costs (secretaries and bookkeeper) be variable in nature, and need to increase with the volume of work?

 

[ramble]

Not really unless you are in the business of messing people around, in Dec and jan and aug there is generally not a lot of work and a bit of thumb twiddling but you cant send the secretary home and tell him or her they are not getting paid. When the courts are in session there may be a lot more work and you really need the secretary and his or her good will, its generally one solicitor one secretary , if the solicitor works 60 -70 hoursa week or does a lot of litigation maybe 2 secretaries per solicitor. Most small firms have a part time bookkeeper usually shared with other offices. Only a massive increase in work,
Would justify an increase in admin staff.

 

[whitegrass]

Another Solicitor here.

In my experience there is reasonable money to be earned in practice. However in my view Solicitors often prove to be poor business people. They take on poor paying and non-paying work (myself included), often times do not "shop around" for best value suppliers and often times do not keep a close monitor on the cost of generating revenue.

 

[circle]

I should add that the €62k is the top end of a large scale and median income for teachers may be (significantly) lower than thatquote]

The top end would include 63,361 (25th point on basic scale) + educational allowance (5,561 for hons primary degree + allowance for HDip etc. if applicable 1,301) + any other allowances for extra duties taken on and promoted posts, teaching through Irish etc.

http://www.into.ie/ROI/WorkingConditions/Salaries/AcademicandOtherAllowances/

A fair comparison might be of an unpromoted solicitor against an unpromoted teacher with the same experience.

 

[Complainer]

A fair comparison might be of an unpromoted solicitor against an unpromoted teacher with the same experience.

Speaking of fair comparisons, if you are only going to consider the classroom hours of the teacher, then you should only consider the client-facing hours for the solicitor - no preparation time to be considered - right?

 

[MOB]

Speaking of fair comparisons, if you are only going to consider the classroom hours of the teacher, then you should only consider the client-facing hours for the solicitor - no preparation time to be considered - right?

No - I would say that if you are making such a comparison, you would compare the hours of parent-teacher meetings to the client-facing hours. But actually, it is just a case of trying to compare apples and oranges.

 

[Kate10]

I really don't know where the profession is going. Students and trainees seem to have a totally unrealistic view of the work involved, and the money to be made. Some newly qualified solicitors seem to me to have had almost no exposure to files and clients during their traineeships. I really can't understand why someone takes on an apprentice if they are not willing to train them, but that's another gripe.

We have too many solicitors qualifying, and I think standards are slipping. The level of responsibility is enormous, and the money to be made is definitely not.

Conveyancing is inevitably going to be simplified, and not before time IMO. But when it is the fee pool for solicitors will shrink again. I think ultimately we will have fewer solicitors, and more law clerks or equivalent, but in the meantime we have difficult times ahead.

Is the solution larger firms? If so, does anyone outside Dublin see signs of practices merging? It's not happening where I am.

 

[l.m]

Kate10 out of curiousty have you seen many of your fellow solicitors taking on trainees or have you yourself taking on any trainnees lately? I'm asking this cause i have myself been looking for an apprenticeship but, i cant myself find anyone taking on anyone, is this the case or are these ppl just fobbing me off.

 

[Askar]

Kate10 out of curiousty have you seen many of your fellow solicitors taking on trainees or have you yourself taking on any trainnees lately? I'm asking this cause i have myself been looking for an apprenticeship but, i cant myself find anyone taking on anyone, is this the case or are these ppl just fobbing me off.

In light of all the comments made by Solicitors who have posted, why are you still looking?

 

[l.m]

Because i wanna be a solicitor........its all i've ever wanted. I dont care if i only earn minimum wage if im doing a job i like. I've taken so much rejection already and all its done is made me want it more and i'll make it some day it may take me a while but i will succeed. Fact of matter is i dont wanna be anything else .

 

[Kate10]

Hi l.m

I have a trainee at the moment because I have taken on a relative. If this person was not related to me I would not have taken him on and if I stay in practice as a sole practitioner I will not be taking on a trainee again.

Most of my friends are in practice in small practices and they do not have trainees. I have a couple of friends who are partners or senior associates in large practices and they have a few trainees per section.

I had no relatives in law myself starting out and I trained in a large firm.

Personally, I think there is a place for trainees in large firms where there is work that they can do. In smaller firms with a lot of litigation they can also be helpful. But generally, I would not be keen to take on a trainee. Maybe when I have been in practice 20 years I will change my mind. If I had more time and money I would enjoy it. Right now though, to be honest ..it's a bit of a headache. I'm very sorry to be negative. I know how tough it is to be in your position.

 

[Askar]

Because i wanna be a solicitor........its all i've ever wanted. I dont care if i only earn minimum wage if im doing a job i like. I've taken so much rejection already and all its done is made me want it more and i'll make it some day it may take me a while but i will succeed. Fact of matter is i dont wanna be anything else .

Why? What sort of legal work do you want to do that so makes you want to be a Solicitor?

 

[l.m]

I love to go into family law and employment law they were areas i had experience in before. I think employment law will become huge in Ireland in the near future. I also like the district court such as drink driving cases etc. I know there is absolutely no money to be made but, i find it interesting.

 

[l.m]

Thanks kate10 for replying. Ya im not particulary interested in joining a large firm as its not the work i wanna do, although i did apply to a few of the major firms this year. I got completely messed around by one of them and has totally put me off the large firms. What i am finding is that the solicitors in the smaller firms who do take on apprentices are taking on family members..........something which has been happening for years. I understand why this is happening but, at times its dishearting to think some people are gettin places simply because of who they are related to and not based on merit. I'm hoping someone will see my potential soon though.........all i can do is hope

 

[MoonTheLoon]

This thread has made me feel a bit better about my income, I was beginning to think I was the only underpaid, under-appreciated solicitor. I was chatting to a barrister today who thought that the profession would become uninsurable if the current level of indemnity claims keeps going. That's one factor missing in the discussion, Solicitors are personally liable for errors and through the compensation fund are also liable for the errors (and greed) of others. I'm not saying it is a bad thing to be responsible for the work that you do but it does add a large layer of stress to the job. I think that in the next 5-10 years the one person firm will have disappeared, the insurers will refuse cover. The work will become more specialised and pro bono will disappear.

Ditto. Apparently insurance premiums in the region of 6k-8k this year, will be 12k come renewal time in November.

The layoffs in the profession don't help either; many firms will find files just dumped in corners and unworked on for long periods of time. Which in turn will lead to more claims next year.

The standard of perfection required is too high for the income that can be earned. The kernel of the problem is the p**s poor billing model for what is highly specialised work. Great website: www.endofesq.com

 

[MOB]

Ditto. Apparently insurance premiums in the region of 6k-8k this year, will be 12k come renewal time in November.

The layoffs in the profession don't help either; many firms will find files just dumped in corners and unworked on for long periods of time. Which in turn will lead to more claims next year.

The standard of perfection required is too high for the income that can be earned. The kernel of the problem is the p**s poor billing model for what is highly specialised work. Great website: www.endofesq.com

Please don't be so despondent. Keep doing your best to do good work at a fair fee. Things will turn.

Instead of seeing the insurance premium increase as a problem, look at it as a blessing. Pricing power is greater for a supplier in a business with high entry costs.

As regards the standard of perfection being too high - no it isn't. There is a regrettable but immutable trend toward defensive practice. Time has to be spent putting things in writing just to protect yourself, and without any real additional benefit to the client. Accept the reality and move on.

But mostly, cheer up. The profession has been through hard times before. If you like the actual work, stick with it. Things will turn.

 

[Askar]

I would have thought that a major problem in the profession is the lack of significant amount of specialisation (unlike the US). Perhaps the market is too small to carry specialists?

As a consequence most solicitors are general practitioners - unfortunately many areas of law have become more complex in the last number of years and that is a significant risk exposure for a general practitioner trying to move out of commoditised low margin work such as residential conveyancing.

Coupled with that is that there is greater supply of general practitioners chasing a decreasing volume of work. I really don't see rising premiums clearing out this already oversupplied market because many overhead costs can be cut with technology and cost sharing. It may, as previous poster pointed out, inhibit new entry - but I suspect that it won't - given that there are probably many more like OP, who will continue at almost any price. Cost savings on overheads etc. could outweigh (or at least significantly offset) increases in insurance premiums.