Social Welfare too high - discouraging people from taking up jobs?

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Exactly. A lot of people in this country - while they themselves are doing okay - are only too willing to bash those below them, with petty remarks about "oh they have mobile phones" or "they drive a car" or "they smoke" instead of looking at the class above where the real money goes (Seanie Fitzpatrick, etc.)
True, but one doesn’t justify the other.

I wondered how long it would be before these kind of 'arguements' came up. Sure, we all know career dole-ists. The problem with the current system is that for career dole-ists it's a lot of money per week. For those actively seeking a job it's certainly not.
Agreed.

We had something like 160,000 people on the dole during the boom. Why were they left on it? I'm all for helping people off it, but urinating on them isn't going to produce a good outcome. Several people on SW have paid taxes for years, so all they are getting back is a little bit of their own money.
Very true.

Last but not least, we have the 'Interview allowance'. This is available through CWO's, and amounts to €150. Who needs 150 quid to go to an interview? That should be split up into 3 installments of 50, with proof of attendance required in each case. There are umpteen ways to cut out waste - of which there is loads - in the system.

As for needing more staff to oversee all this, well, what was the Croke park agreement supposed to be for?
Yep, I agree with you there as well.
 
I saw the two letters in the Irish Times. They seemed genuine.

Here are some int'l comparisons:

USA

JSB = 50% of former wage for 26 weeks, now extended to 99 weeks in the recession
JSA = none, but there is TANF payment for families

Germany

JSB / UI = 50%-60% of former wage for 12 months
JSA = 359 pm or 83 pw plus non-cash benefits

Denmark

JSB = Unemployment benefits can be paid up to a maximum of 90% of the previous work income, however, no more than the maximum rate of unemployment benefits of DKK 3760 (€ 495) per week.
A member has a right to unemployment benefits for a maximum of two years in total within three years.


My suggestion, which I have called for before, is:

JSB = increase to 250 pw for 12 months
Extend JSB to 18 months or maybe 24 months during recessions.

JSA = abolish it, or restrict its duration across your lifetime
 
Exactly. A lot of people in this country - while they themselves are doing okay - are only too willing to bash those below them, with petty remarks about "oh they have mobile phones" or "they drive a car" or "they smoke" instead of looking at the class above where the real money goes (Seanie Fitzpatrick, etc.)
I don't see people on the dole as below me. According to this thread, many seem to be far better off. That, surely is the problem.

I also hate the idea of TDs getting multiple pensions, perks and unvouched expenses (ie theft). I don't have a problem with people who are richer than me through hard work.
 
Germany
JSA = 359 pm or 83 pw plus non-cash benefits

This is why we have no credibility in europe.

As long as the long term unemployed continue to enjoy benefits far in excess of those in europe and as long as we have a minimum wage higher than the countries who are being asked to lend us money, we will find it hard to get a sympathetic ear in europe.

No argument can make a long term unemployed person on €188 p.w. with a medical card and rent subsidy in Ireland worse off than their german counterpart.

It would be very nice to continue to have minimums we have in terms of social welfare. But if protecting some of those minimums is preventing us from making a case to europe to retain our corporation tax levels or preventing us from forcing burden sharing with those who funded the banks, we are setting the country up to have a lot more people living on a lot less than the current minimum.
 
This is why we have no credibility in europe.

As long as the long term unemployed continue to enjoy benefits far in excess of those in europe and as long as we have a minimum wage higher than the countries who are being asked to lend us money, we will find it hard to get a sympathetic ear in europe.

No argument can make a long term unemployed person on €188 p.w. with a medical card and rent subsidy in Ireland worse off than their german counterpart.

It would be very nice to continue to have minimums we have in terms of social welfare. But if protecting some of those minimums is preventing us from making a case to europe to retain our corporation tax levels or preventing us from forcing burden sharing with those who funded the banks, we are setting the country up to have a lot more people living on a lot less than the current minimum.

How dare you use logic and reason! We have to look after "the most vulnerable in society".
 
Yep, people on high incomes shouldn't get childrens allowance.

Depends what you call high incomes.
A combined income of 150-200K maybe, but how many people are on this.
If they set the cut-off point too low it will be a further barrier to getting people back to work. It would require a good salary to encourage someone to give up 7.5K, using your example.
 
Depends what you call high incomes.
A combined income of 150-200K maybe, but how many people are on this.
If they set the cut-off point too low it will be a further barrier to getting people back to work. It would require a good salary to encourage someone to give up 7.5K, using your example.

Get rid of it altogether and introduce a refundable tax credit. That way the cost of delivery to the state is also vastly reduced.
At the moment the government takes €8’000 (or so) from me in taxes and gives it back to me less the administrative cost. It’s a circular transaction that creates jobs for clerical and post office staff.
 
I really think that we cannot pay any attention to what employers say. We saw the reaction of O Callaghan Hotels to the cut in minimum wage. At least those workers had a union to defend them.
It wasn't the social welfare receipients that landed us in the mess we are in
 
I really think that we cannot pay any attention to what employers say. We saw the reaction of O Callaghan Hotels to the cut in minimum wage. At least those workers had a union to defend them.
It will turn out to be a pyrrhic victory if the hotels in question go bust.


It wasn't the social welfare receipients that landed us in the mess we are in
Agreed but if a high minimum wage and welfare rates relative to our European competitors is contributing to us staying in the mess then we should reduce it.
 
The letter writer, David Lawlor, gets a nice article today.

This is someone who seems au fait with [broken link removed]in the promotion of his business.
Good for him. Maybe that's how he's now able to advertise jobs worth 28k.
I detect a note of sourness in your post, however.

It will turn out to be a pyrrhic victory if the hotels in question go bust.
If they do, then saving E40 per member of the housekeeping staff per week isn't gonna make much difference. It'll be poor decisions on a greater scale that will have brought them to this point in the first place.
 
If they do, then saving E40 per member of the housekeeping staff per week isn't gonna make much difference. It'll be poor decisions on a greater scale that will have brought them to this point in the first place.
I agree that it was the bigger decisions that got them to this point but, again, cutting wages may be necessary to get them out of the hole they are in. It’s not just the €40 per week that’s saved, it’s the fact that their wage scale now starts at a lower level so all higher wages can be lowered accordingly for future hires.
 
I can only speak of my own personal experience as an employer. over the last couple of years or so, we've advertised a small number of entry level positions at a salary of around and about 15% above the minimum wage. The vast majority (99%) of applicants for those positions used to be non nationals but in recent months, it has changed to probably 60/40 non nationals to Irish people.

I don't think it was simply down to social welfare why Irish people were not applying, I also think there was an attitude/expectation issue as well. I've interviewed Irish graduates for other roles who have asked me questions about travel allowances, expenses policy, career breaks and literally in one case "can I see what my office would be like?". I've never got those kind of questions from non-nationals. I find it bizarre that a lot of Irish people will not take entry level rolls here but are happy to work in a shop in Auz
 
Good for him. Maybe that's how he's now able to advertise jobs worth 28k.
I detect a note of sourness in your post, however.
I'm not sure what you men by sourness. I called bs on this letter from the first post.

Everyone has their own agenda on these things. The rights and wrongs of a benefits culture are emotive and my opinion on the matter flip flops on a regular basis. However hijacking that kind of emotive issue solely for the purpose of self promotion isn't something I've any time for.

Were there ever 2 jobs advertised?

First,the businessman offered the position to a Romanian national who has been living here for a number of years. But he quit after just one day.
"He's married, with kids, and is renting," said Mr Lawlor, adding that the man qualifies for multiple types of social welfare.
"He'd been working for a rival but had been let go two years ago. He started on the Tuesday and on the Wednesday he said he felt he was entitled to more money.
"He said he'd get more money on the dole."
Mr Lawlor had pointed out to the man that he could also earn overtime, at one-and-a-half times the rate, as well as have the use of a company van for incidental personal use.
"A lot of these guys are handy, so they do nixers; they have that on top of their dole."
The following week Mr Lawlor offered the job to a Filipino national, who, he said, had the skills required and had done the "best ever interview". He had been living here for several years, had four children and drove an "06 or 07 car".

A Romanian and a Filipino. These sound very cliched descriptions along the lines of "It was a black man what robbed me".

What's your opinion? Do you think the guy is 100% genuine or just making it up for the free publicity?
 
I knew him in college actually. A nice enough fella, an incredibly hard worker and as straight as a dye although he would make Michael O'Leary look like a Trotskyite. I don't believe for a second that he is anything less than 100% genuine.
 
I find it bizarre that a lot of Irish people will not take entry level rolls here but are happy to work in a shop in Auz

Thats an interesting point - working abroad at an entry level level job is ok but not at home.

If I lost my job tomorro - I would take any job in a shop, bar or hotel.
 
It is a sad state of affairs when you see such reports and the general sense of entitlement in society, but I really am not surprised. Only in the last couple of decades has this entitlement filtered through. In my fathers and grandfathers generation you would only accept a government cheque if it was absolutely necessary for mere survival. And you certainly would accept any kind of work in order to provide for your family.
To this day my grandfather refuses to be financially assessed to see whether some of my grandmothers nursing home care could be paid for. His attitude is that while he can afford to pay for it he will pay for it.

"The most basic rate of welfare payment for the long-term unemployed amounts to €188 weekly in Ireland. That is equivalent to €819monthly.The most basic rate of welfare payment for the long-term unemployed in Germany (Hartz IV) amounts to €359 monthly, less than 45 per cent of the Irish rate."
And in Germany when you get to the Hartz IV stage you also have to work in order to get full entitlements. This creates (a) an incentive to look for and accept any work that pays more and (b) gives unskilled people the chance of some work experience.

I wouldn't spend 1 second worrying about the first person and their reasons. I'd get on with running my business, not sending letters to the Times.
But isn't a situation where your first pick, who would probably be the best suited, is not working for you because social welfare entitlements are essentially competing with you, rather than your competitors, worth reporting on?

I think part of what's wrong is the belief that it's the function of the State to ensure that jobs are provided to match available skills.
This is a very good point. If there is no job for your skill set then you should do something about your skill set and not look to government to do something about getting you a job.

Exactly. A lot of people in this country - while they themselves are doing okay - are only too willing to bash those below them, with petty remarks about "oh they have mobile phones" or "they drive a car" or "they smoke" instead of looking at the class above where the real money goes (Seanie Fitzpatrick, etc.)
Seanie and his cronies are just one example. There are far more people on high incomes that have that income because of their skills, work ethic, risk taking, entrepreneurial ability, etc. It is far more common for a public call on "taxing the rich" so that they pay their fair share, than for the public to call on bringing social welfare payments to more reasonable levels.
I think the average Joe should be publicly thanking the top 20% of income earners for picking up 80% of the income tax bill. If there are any income tax payers close to 50% deductions reading this thread, I, an average income earner, whole-heartedly say thank you.

We had something like 160,000 people on the dole during the boom. Why were they left on it? I'm all for helping people off it, but urinating on them isn't going to produce a good outcome. Several people on SW have paid taxes for years, so all they are getting back is a little bit of their own money.
I would rather ask why were they not kicked off the dole. How can 160,000 claim unemployment when over 200,000 eastern Europeans arrived here and got work?
As the whole social welfare system is a ponzi scheme, nobody who claims social welfare after years of employment is getting any of their own money back.
 
But there is also job snobbery in Ireland by employers and employees.

Some people won't take certain jobs as it woud ruin their CVs.

Employers can have a funny atitude towards people taking entry level jobs.

People prefer to say that they are "bewteen jobs" rather than doing an entry level job.

Working anti socail hours can be frowned upon & it should show a work ethic.
 
I think the problem some employers have of giving entry level jobs to high skilled people is that they know those people will move on as soon as something better comes along. High staff turnover is a major cost as even low skilled jobs require training.
 
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