So was everyone living way beyond their means

extopia said:
Yes, but that's because many older people had enough equity in their houses to "release" a lot of it and still be in "profit".

But we have to remember that "equity release" is a euphemism for borrowing, and houses are not ATMs.
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Well put Extopia
 
Many older people don't have mortgages and childminding costs and didn't have the mindset to go mad on cheap credit. If they can afford to spend money now then good for them!
 
Most of us in the older bracket never did go mad. Most peoples standard of living increased greatly in recent years and some of these improvements have become standard now. In the 80's when my kids were small, foreign holidays were unheard of. We rented houses within Ireland for a week if we were lucky. Dining out was reserved for special occasions. Kids clothes were passed around in the family between various cousins and I never owned more than one buggy or car seat ! Youngsters didn't know the difference then because their friends lived the same way.
I've always lived within my means and now that children are reared manage to indulge my passion for travel a bit.
Thank you Purple for standing up for us. I haven't taken out an equity release but now that college is finished & kids are self supporting & my mortgage is a pittance I have that extra money for myself !
 
There is no doubt people are living way beyond their means. I paid a visit to Mabs last year and she laughed when I told her we were living off 2 credit cards. She said everyone (in debt) was doing it, and moved on swiftly to next question. Thankfully
we are sorting out our debts and I will save for whatever I want in the future.
I did go to New York last year on a holiday of a lifetime. If I had been sensible I would not have gone, but it was the best holiday ever, I dont regret it, it's a fantastic memory.
 
GeneralZod said:
When people such as David McWilliams and near the top Morgan Kelly pointed out that we were in a bubble and a crash rather than a "soft-landing" was likely there was no shortage of vested interests shouting them down. If you predict a bust for long enough eventually you'll be right and so on. Even this website had/has a policy of not discussing property prices. A large number of people didn't want to hear it.
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Absolutely. David McWilliams was just on RTE Radio 1, and you could hear the anger in his voice at the fact that vested interests, who continually denied there could be any truth in his opinion, now pretend the problems we are facing could never have been foreseen. They fall back on the pathetic argument that because McWllams and co never gave a precise date and time for the crash, that they were just crying wolf. An argument similarly to an obese man, continually warned he will have a heart attack if he continues his habits, deciding that the doctor is wrong because he can't tell him when the heart attack will happen. There are many people, some prominent on his forum, who owe us and especially the young people of Ireland, an abject apology for directly contributing to the hysteria of the bubble.
 
charliemacck said:
Absolutely. David McWilliams was just on RTE Radio 1, and you could hear the anger in his voice at the fact that vested interests, who continually denied there could be any truth in his opinion, now pretend the problems we are facing could never have been foreseen. They fall back on the pathetic argument that because McWllams and co never gave a precise date and time for the crash, that they were just crying wolf. An argument similarly to an obese man, continually warned he will have a heart attack if he continues his habits, deciding that the doctor is wrong because he can't tell him when the heart attack will happen. There are many people, some prominent on his forum, who owe us and especially the young people of Ireland, an abject apology for directly contributing to the hysteria of the bubble.
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An apology for making decisions for you? Maybe its time we started to grow up and accept that we can make bad and good decisions all by ourselves and we tend to hear what we want to hear. Right now McWilliams and co are preaching to the converted, bust is the new boom we are now sheepishly agreeing with every downward forecast as we did we every upward one.
 
charliemacck said:
There are many people, some prominent on his forum, who owe us and especially the young people of Ireland, an abject apology for directly contributing to the hysteria of the bubble.
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Not attacking you but could you point out how this website contributed to the bubble and how this affected you?
 
charliemacck said:
An apology for banning voices you didn't want to hear would be a start.
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So you do blame others for decisions that you make yourself? House price discussion was banned which stopped both sides of the argument but looking at threads you would never think it with the constant talk of dropping values. Anyone new to the site that only took the views of anonymous posters would definitely not buy a house, but surely people don't simply follow the advice of one forum when making serious financial commitments.
 
I think it goes to how an individual feels about both Banking and Debt, a great number of people inherently have what may be described as a healthy scepticism toward financial institutions, while they appreciate the role Banks have in facilitating their day to day life and the fundementals such as getting a roof over your head by getting a mortgage, they would have baulked at responding to unsolicited loan offers, and didn't see the credit card limit as a goal to aim toward, there would be a recognition of what the ultimate cost of that purchase would be.

Another contributing issue is there has been an unprecedented focus throught the various media on lifestyle product and expenditure over the past 15 years internationally which was begun by the voyeurism of Robin Leech's 'Lifestyle of the Rich and Famous' which spawned many many primetime programmes about homes, amazing holiday locations, designer goods, God forbid even fantastic and exotic food you have to slave over your beautiful kitchen to produce yourself!! So its not surprising that many people took advantage of cheap, easily available credit to 'achieve' what was available as a consumerable item but was marketeted as lifestyle.
 
To me, the last few years have been about attitude. Personnaly speaking, I've never had a car loan or borrowed for a holiday. If I didn't have the money I didn't go. I've never bought a new car and have nearly always been able to save a few bob a month. That's my attitude and perhaps reflects how I was brought up. I remember my father saying once that when he built a new house on the farm in 1971 he borrowed £3000 from the ACC (no other bank would lend to small farmers at the time) and used to lie awake at night wondering how he would ever pay it back. Like the OP, I lived within my means

I compare that attitude with some other people I know, they seem to think that new cars, foreign holidays and all the mod cons were an entitlement and a right. I'll take one of my staff for example, whose husband lost his job in September. She earns €60kpa, so they have sufficient to cover the mortgage etc. Yet despite only one salary coming in, they still upgraded their telly for Christmas using Argos credit, she paid €200 for a new pair of Ugs and I dread to think what she owes on cards etc. If she looses her job (which she might), she will struggle big time to pay any of it back. At least I know if I loose my job, my only debt is the mortgage

People were not necessarily living beyond their means in the good times. They borrowed and had the capacity to pay it back. Trouble was they never thought a rainy day would arrive and now that it has, more and more of them are going to get into significant difficulty.
 
MrMan said:
So you do blame others for decisions that you make yourself? House price discussion was banned which stopped both sides of the argument but looking at threads you would never think it with the constant talk of dropping values. Anyone new to the site that only took the views of anonymous posters would definitely not buy a house, but surely people don't simply follow the advice of one forum when making serious financial commitments.
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Being relatively new here, I am in no position to pass judgement on what happened here 6 or 12 months ago. But I want to respond to the portion of MrMan's post that I have bolded.

A big problem is that many people are relatively naive in managing their affairs, and one confident voice in a forum such as this might be all that they need to encourage them to go one way or the other in making a decision. For that reason, I think we all share a responsibility to express our opinions in a restrained and balanced way, especially on questions that might influence individuals' decisions on important matters.

Some people here emphasise individual responsibility and, to a considerable extent, I agree that they have a point. But we should never lose sight of the fact that many people do not have the expertise to make the best decisions, and can be misguided by the careless advisor or the unscrupulous seller of products or services. As a society, and as individuals, I think we should do what we can to help people out of difficult situations, and we should not be too hasty to pass judgement on them.
 
Its not passing judgement really though its highlighting the need for people to realise that in order to make an informed decision they should look for a variety of opinions and search out the facts rather. Many people on this and every forum have strong views on various topics but that doesn't make their views right or wrong.
 
I know my family is better off than we were a few years ago. What really struck me throughout the "boom times" was the way nearly everyone thought it was like some kind of reat thing to be paying way over the odds for houses - what was that all about? Auctioneers & banks encouraged this totally irresponsible spending - but people really only have themselves to blame. I'm not being smug, it's just how I see it. Hopefully, my job will still be there throughout the coming year - but I'm not sure about it. However, I can adapt to the changing circumstances as I lived through the 80's when believe me it was tough going - mortgage rates 14%. We should all get tougher with our public representatives - take no bull**** from them. It is up to them to get the economy back on track, they can't just keep blaming the public sector pay - that is a cop out - they employed them in the first place did they not? They should first look at their own pay/expenses - Beverley Quinn a case in point! They must also reform drastically the banking sector - they played a major part in this recession. Changes are inevitable - but lets make sure they are the right ones.
 
MrMan said:
Its not passing judgement really though its highlighting the need for people to realise that in order to make an informed decision they should look for a variety of opinions and search out the facts rather. Many people on this and every forum have strong views on various topics but that doesn't make their views right or wrong.
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I didn't mean to suggest that you were passing judgement on people who made bad decisions.

I was inviting people to remember that some people are not skilled in financial matters, and are also not skilled in filtering advice. If you express an opinion as if it were an uncontested fact, some people might believe that it is a fact. [A lot of people accepted that ever-rising property values was a fact.]
 
I admit that I was - but was way ahead of the possy and lived totally beyond my means from 1996 to 2002. After graduation lived in the UK and easy credit was widely available and offered constantly. A young naive graduate after struggling through uni, and then working in the city of London thinking I had a huge salary - it was too tempting and I went mad. All I have to show for it is a damaged liver and photos from fancy holidays. Came back to Ireland in 2001 for a lower salary and still did not face up to the problem until repayments got too much. Was lucky in that I sat down with my friendly bank manager in 2002 and got one big loan ( €52k ) for 5 years and a strict budget.

Had decent salary rises in the meantime and bought a house in early 2005 - again banks throwing huge offers at us, but lesson learnt and only took on a mortgage we could comfortably afford to pay off. Loan is now paid off and saving the €1k repayment plus another €1.5k a month. But those first 3 years of repayments were tough.

It was just too easy to get credit during the boom - and I believe lots of people were tempted. The posters above seem to be the older generation - and lived through more sensble times so had a better attitude. But I do believe a lot of people in their 20s and 30s were living beyond their means - the question is how many have cottoned onto it and have reversed the problem. Time will tell I suppose.
 
MrMan said:
So you do blame others for decisions that you make yourself?
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I myself had enough self-confident to ignore the vested interests telling us that house prices would never drop and at most, we would experience a soft landing.

But just as con-men use the justification that the only people that suffer from their exploits are idiots, so we see the vested interests now claims that it was the fault of the ordinary working people of this country. You know, despite the fact that an overwhelming proportion of the political establishment, business establishment and the media colluded in the myth that the property boom would never end badly. It's a pity that Al Gore has already used the title "An Inconvenient Truth", as that would be the perfect title for one on the Irish property bubble.

Anyone who questioned the status quo was told by our previous Taoiseach to commit suicide, perhaps because in 2006, direct property tax revenues amounted to 17% of total tax revenues. This could exceed 30% when the indirect impact on income tax and VAT was included.

60% of the Irish Times advertising revenue came from property, hence the many page of property porn they published every week, with hardly any opposing voices. I'd had many letters published in the IT over the years, yet oddly not one of mine against the bubble was published.

The business editor of the Sunday Tribune was sacked for pointing out the hypocrisy of a property agent who was talking up the market while unable to sell his own house.

But yes, you're right, MrMan; all these ordinary people were idiots to listen to the government, the media and bulls like you. They're getting everything they deserve, eh?
 
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