Sickening Sick Leave

I get 31 days per annum plus 13 flexi and good friday (I'd happily work that day). I don't take all the flexi days but do like the flexibility of the clock.

I don't count the public holidays as everyone gets them so I say I get 9 weeks a year.

In relation to the sick leave, our figures are fairly current ie: up to June if not July. PPARS is good that way.
 
This flexi thing seems to irritate many people. I've never had flexi, but I did a little enquiring. It is used in some parts of private and some parts of public sectors.

Rules vary. Core hours must be worked i.e. 10am - 12.30pm and 2pm - 4.00pm. All other hours to around 6.30pm and after 8.00am are flexible. You can work up to one "flexi-day" in a flexi month in which you must take the day as they are not accumulated to say a full week's holiday. Flexi is reported as being good for staff morale; production is generally increased. It is self managing and computerised e.g. if you are not in attendance for core hours or not working or working less hours the employee is knuckled (and rightly so).

So for any time "extra" worked (and all time is managed) staff get time off; hardly 12 days "holidays." Let's call a spade a spade here. Additionally, where flexi is working there is no mad brake screeching in the car par for people arriving at the workplace and in the evening the "perk" can help alleviate the traffic situation at rush hour.

Like I said earlier, flexi-time working was never available to me, but I think the concept is a good idea.

Becky pointed out the attributes of PPARS (Personnel Computer system in health service). I thought PPARS failed and cost the state huge huge money a few years ago.
 
PPARS failed because not even NASA could build a computer system that could comfortably handle the nuances of the pay scales, grades, allowances, exceptions etc of the HSE or indeed, most of the Irish CS/PS
 
I have no problem with Flexi-time but 20 days annual leave should be standard. Long service etc. could add a few more but nobody should get more than 25 days a year.

A standard working week of 39 hours should be mandatory across all state employees (or those paid by the state). Having a very short working week (32.5 hours) with flexi-time is taking the pee.
The department of social welfare (sorry, Social Protection) pays sick benefit after 3 days off work. Nobody should get paid sick leave unless it's a work related injury. If you want to make sure you are paid if you are sick then buy some insurance.
 
Delboy said:
PPARS failed because not even NASA could build a computer system that could comfortably handle the nuances of the pay scales, grades, allowances, exceptions etc of the HSE or indeed, most of the Irish CS/PS
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The solution is simple; streamline the grades and allowances.
 
Purple said:
The solution is simple; streamline the grades and allowances.
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If my memory serves me correctly; were not Deloitte and Touche retained as the major advisors to the HSE for the introduction of PPARS? PPARS failed and was shelved, I think.

Also, if my memory serves me right didn't it cost (according to the main newspapers at the time) in excess of €140,000,000.00?

I think €140M would build a couple of big hospitals even today and have them kitted out, don't you?
 
Purple said:
Having a very short working week (32.5 hours) with flexi-time is taking the pee.
.
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Who is working 32.5hours per week? The majority of civil servants are now working 37 hours net per week (if not more). Normal attendance period for civil servants now is 9am-5.45pm Mon-Thurs, and 9am-5.15pm on Friday.
 
PPARS was a failure because it cost too much - a perfect example of how not to handle a IT project. That said, it is a very useful HR tool from my point of view.

I think I had the shortest working week - 32 hrs 55 mins (and no I don't know where the 55 minutes came from). My new standard week is 35 hours and 15 minutes ( I think). I work 35 to 40 most weeks, it depends on what is needed to get the job done.

Purple I'm a long time working for the HSE and have in recent years had to listen to 'it's really very simple, all you need to do is................" from the new all singing all dancing 'private sector mangers' so many times, and yet they have failed to do it.

It 'simply' isn't.
 
CMCR said:
Who is working 32.5hours per week? The majority of civil servants are now working 37 hours net per week (if not more). Normal attendance period for civil servants now is 9am-5.45pm Mon-Thurs, and 9am-5.15pm on Friday.
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I can personally attest that during my working life across a broad spectrum of the private sector I worked a 32.5 hour week although starting & finishing times fluctuated with a 1 hour lunch & two 15 minute tea breaks .

I worked at physically demanding jobs in a flour mills , a brewery , a fruit growing farm & a furniture factory where such breaks were essential to maintain efficiency & energy levels .

Latterly I worked in the Bank of Ireland where initially I worked a 33.75 hour week but following a quid pro quo arrangement with the IBOA that was reduced to a 32.5 hour week - if I had worked the hours of 37.25 hours quoted by CMCR above I would have earned an additional €6,000 in overtime per annum + tea allowances.

I have little doubt that large swathes of the private sector thankfully work such work/life balance hours.
 
Deiseblue said:
Latterly I worked in the Bank of Ireland where initially I worked a 33.75 hour week but following a quid pro quo arrangement with the IBOA that was reduced to a 32.5 hour week - if I had worked the hours of 37.25 hours quoted by CMCR above I would have earned an additional €6,000 in overtime per annum + tea allowances.
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Banking was, and in many ways still is, part of the Protected Sector which comprises the public and civil service, the so-called "commercial" semi-state and non commercial semi-state sectors and banks that are "too big to fail". This is the unionised sector and is not subject to open competition.
 
Purple said:
nobody should get more than 25 days a year.

A standard working week of 39 hours should be mandatory across all state employees (or those paid by the state).

Nobody should get paid sick leave unless it's a work related injury. If you want to make sure you are paid if you are sick then buy some insurance.
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None of this says anything about creating better morale and a culture of productivity. Most large organisations (private or public) are nowhere near an acceptable level of productivity for the hours worked or effort invested. Increasing hours and restricting sick benefits whilst ignoring inefficient, and in many cases pointless, work practices is not the answer.

I assume this might sound odd to people working in small straightforward businesses, particularly owners, but more hours is not the answer to better productivity.
 
Delboy said:
PPARS failed because not even NASA could build a computer system that could comfortably handle the nuances of the pay scales, grades, allowances, exceptions etc of the HSE or indeed, most of the Irish CS/PS
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The figure given here is €133 million. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_10004238.shtml

Of all the examples of incompetence by the public sector in recent years and wastes of taxpayers money this one has always bugged me the most.

And the solution here "really was very simple" I will explain it in a minute.

Most of the many spent was paid to private sector consultants. Who gladly accepted the money to attempt an impossible task.

I would go further than Delboy and say that the problem isn't that that the structure is complicated, a computer could handle that, the problem is that there is no coherent pay arrangement for many in the public sector.

I know for certain, that for some private sector employees whose wages were dictated by JLC agreements, the employers simply guess their wages because there is no coherent structure. Just a series of rules that have built up over time, which in many areas contradict each other.

I have had it confirmed to me by a senior HSE manager that this was why PPARS failed.

Its really very simple

All you have to do Minister Veradkar is buy a payroll system off the shelf that is capable of handling say 1 million employees on say 200 pay rates. Such systems cost in the hundreds of thousands (not millions) of Euro.

Then inform all staff that they will have to move to the new system. If their pay structure cannot be accommodated by the new system, the pay structure will have to be modified so that it can. Simple.

This really very simple approach was adopted by Revenue when they introduced ROS. Every accounting system in the country had to be adapted to fit ROS.

By contract to PPARS, the introduction of ROS was a great public sector success.
 
cremeegg said:
The figure given here is €133 million. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_10004238.shtml


Most of the many spent was paid to private sector consultants. Who gladly accepted the money to attempt an impossible task. . . . .

I have had it confirmed to me by a senior HSE manager that this was why PPARS failed.

Its really very simple
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There you have it, the public sector being ripped off by private sector well known accountants. Nobody shouted "Stop" and I wonder why. Was anybody sacked? Was any money recovered from the private sector advisors? What happened to former team members of PPARS in the HSE? There is nothing simple in the whole process. What about other comparable health departments in other countries. I bet they have computer services that work.

If any senior manager from the HSE advised me that Croke Park is in Dublin, I would physically visit the ground just to make sure, such is my belief in that organisation of ongoing poor management.
 
"Banking was, and in many ways still is, part of the Protected Sector which comprises the public and civil service"


Were bank employees subject to Croke Park; Haddington Road and Fempi?

I don't recall that they were.

Marion
 
Marion said:
"Banking was, and in many ways still is, part of the Protected Sector which comprises the public and civil service"


Were bank employees subject to Croke Park; Haddington Road and Fempi?

I don't recall that they were.

Marion
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Error
 
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First thing I've to do when I get to work this morning is try to convince a colleague to heed his GP, who yesterday morning handed him a cert and told him to go home and go to bed for the rest of the week and let the steroids and antibiotics he's been on for weeks do their work... he's too busy and too conscientious to not come in though, so he came in yesterday and plans on coming in today as well.

The sickening thing for me is that in my experience for every person who sees sick days as additional annual leave, there's more who will come to work no matter what, but the stats won't show that.
 
Purple said:
The department of social welfare (sorry, Social Protection) pays sick benefit after 3 days off work. Nobody should get paid sick leave unless it's a work related injury. If you want to make sure you are paid if you are sick then buy some insurance.
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A simple fix right there.
 
mandelbrot said:
First thing I've to do when I get to work this morning is try to convince a colleague to heed his GP, who yesterday morning handed him a cert and told him to go home and go to bed for the rest of the week and let the steroids and antibiotics he's been on for weeks do their work... he's too busy and too conscientious to not come in though, so he came in yesterday and plans on coming in today as well.

The sickening thing for me is that in my experience for every person who sees sick days as additional annual leave, there's more who will come to work no matter what, but the stats won't show that.
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I think many people looking at the public service feel that those who see sick days as additional leave are treated the same as the busy and conscientious.

Over time this must erode morale, and undermine efficiency. This is the result of weak management.
 
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