Should we get rid of free travel of OAPs?

Deiseblue said:
Isn't all rather academic currently ? Unrestricted free public transport travel is an entitlement for those who qualify including people over 66 and any means tested basis to qualify for same is simply not on any Political Party's agenda .
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True, but this is a discussion forum so it's all academic.
I'd like to see a move away from universal payments towards a tax credit system. Make it a refundable tax credit, in that if the credit is not used it is paid to the recipient. We could pay all social transfers that way. It would eliminate a massive administrative overhead for the State.

We could then stop rich parents getting children's allowance, rich pensioners getting free travel and other allowances etc and move more of the social transfer to people who actually need it. I presume that you, as a socialist, would be in favour of that?
 
Purple said:
Oh they're factual.
Children more likely to live in poverty than pensioners.
It's obvious that people who have paid off their mortgage will have a higher net wealth than people who have just taken one out. Info here.
I can't find the link to the article that discusses disposable income net of housing and childcare costs. I think it was a UCD study.
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This ESRI survey states that those who are unemployed are most likely to suffer from poverty. Their children will likewise. Even with state transfers in the form of HAP.
 
Purple said:
People with wealth, low debt and high disposable income.
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Don't know any, how about you? Most people I hear about that have huge wealth usually have huge debt to match it. Weren't they the new rich during the tiger and the never had it anyway brigade?
You really do come across as someone with a massive chip on their shoulder against certain sections of society. Now, maybe I'm wrong but your bias towards public servants and pensioners who might have saved a few bob is embarrassing at this stage, every time someone says something positive the chip gives you an itch and out comes the bias. Give it a rest for a bit and lets see what elected members of our Goverment do in the forthcoming budget for every section of society. I've no doubt that not everyone will be happy, but give us a break with the venom. Like everyone else, you've enough to be getting on with.
 
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noproblem said:
Don't know any, how about you? Most people I hear about that have huge wealth usually have huge debt to match it. Weren't they the new rich during the tiger and the never had it anyway brigade?
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I just look at the facts and the information on distribution of wealth in the country.
noproblem said:
You really do come across as someone with a massive chip on their shoulder against certain sections of society.
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I've no issue with any section of society.
noproblem said:
Now, maybe I'm wrong but your bias towards public servants and pensioners who might have saved a few bob is embarrassing at this stage, every time someone says something positive the chip gives you an itch and out comes the bias.
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Yes, you're wrong. Fair play to public servants and pensioners (and anyone else) who might have saved a few bob. I have no problem with them. I do have a problem with the State giving them money and sweeties they don't need when other people who do need help aren't getting it. I've just as much of a problem with people like me getting Children's allowance or my children getting free third level education.
noproblem said:
Give it a rest for a bit and lets see what elected members of our Goverment do in the forthcoming budget for every section of society. I've no doubt that not everyone will be happy, but give us a break with the venom. Like everyone else, you've enough to be getting on with.
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Pointing out other people's delusion that they are entitled to things they don't need based solely on their age is not venom, though it might make them feel uncomfortable.
Anyway, this is a discussion forum on the internet. It's not real life. Relax.
 
Silversurfer said:
This ESRI survey states that those who are unemployed are most likely to suffer from poverty. Their children will likewise. Even with state transfers in the form of HAP.
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I does indeed. Should those children get more support?
 
Purple said:
I does indeed. Should those children get more support?
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As unemployment is the only identifiable factor and there is 100% employment in Ireland perhaps more training courses? More encouragement to work? Removing free bus passes will not solve this problem. These childrens families are already getting all the available transfers.
 
Silversurfer said:
As unemployment is the only identifiable factor and there is 100% employment in Ireland perhaps more training courses? More encouragement to work? Removing free bus passes will not solve this problem. These childrens families are already getting all the available transfers.
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Ah, okay, so keep the free travel for rich pensioners and don't provide extra educational resourced for poor kids. Got it.
 
noproblem said:
Most people I hear about that have huge wealth usually have huge debt to match it.
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Just on that; those people probably aren't wealthy if their debts are equal to their assets. They might have a high income but they have no net wealth and their income is used to service their debts. Wealth is your net assets.
 
Purple said:
Ah, okay, so keep the free travel for rich pensioners and don't provide extra educational resourced for poor kids. Got it.
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Or remove the subsidies for the work shy. If the unemployed have the same disposable income as the employed. The only variable is ‘work’.
 
Silversurfer said:
Or remove the subsidies for the work shy.
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Most welfare is paid to people who work, excluding the welfare paid to pensioners of course.
Silversurfer said:
If the unemployed have the same disposable income as the employed. The only variable is ‘work’.
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I don't understand that point.



I've been lucky enough to have always had a job and I've never claimed welfare payments, though my ex-wife does claim children's allowance which is a social transfer.
Many retired people who worked in the private and public sectors claim a State pension that they came nowhere close to funding.
I my case I've already paid way more in social insurance that would be needed to fund the State pension I'll get but many haven't.

When you say "work shy" do you mean people who don't work but can? Does that include stay at home parents? Does it include people who choose to work part time instead of fulltime?
It's not just the "work shy" who are getting hand-outs that they haven't paid for. Given that it cost the State €7000-€8000 each year to educate a child I'd guess that most middle income families are major net recipients from the State, not to mention working families in social housing, so it's not about who is working and who isn't; it's about who needs it and who doesn't.
 
Purple said:
Most welfare is paid to people who work, excluding the welfare paid to pensioners of course.
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It's their pension not welfare paid out. A bit of manners and respect and less of the condescending attitude please. That chip is weighing heavily again today.
 
noproblem said:
It's their pension not welfare paid out. A bit of manners and respect and less of the condescending attitude please. That chip is weighing heavily again today.
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It's a social transfer that in many cases they didn't contribute enough to pay for. How's that different from any other welfare payment or indeed welfare payment that the recipient did pay enough for? Either way it's a welfare payment.

Many people pay large amounts of tax for years but then find themselves unemployed. They could have contributed far more than they receive in unemployment benefits. Are they less entitled to that welfare than people who paid almost no tax during their working life and are now retired and receiving a State pension? What about people who never worked but now receive a State pension?

You may not like reality encroaching on your preconceptions but it is reality none the less.
 
T McGibney said:
Appallingly insensitive comment - and wrong to the point of being off-the-wall.
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Really? Have a read of the comments section in The Journal today about Alone lobbying for a €20 increase in pensions. Very little sympathy for the long term unemployed. My comment is based on the ESRI report.
 
Purple said:
Most welfare is paid to people who work, excluding the welfare paid to pensioners of course.

I don't understand that point.



I've been lucky enough to have always had a job and I've never claimed welfare payments, though my ex-wife does claim children's allowance which is a social transfer.
Many retired people who worked in the private and public sectors claim a State pension that they came nowhere close to funding.
I my case I've already paid way more in social insurance that would be needed to fund the State pension I'll get but many haven't.

When you say "work shy" do you mean people who don't work but can? Does that include stay at home parents? Does it include people who choose to work part time instead of fulltime?
It's not just the "work shy" who are getting hand-outs that they haven't paid for. Given that it cost the State €7000-€8000 each year to educate a child I'd guess that most middle income families are major net recipients from the State, not to mention working families in social housing, so it's not about who is working and who isn't; it's about who needs it and who doesn't.
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My comment is based on the ESRI link you shared.
Purple said:
Most welfare is paid to people who work, excluding the welfare paid to pensioners of course.

I don't understand that point.



I've been lucky enough to have always had a job and I've never claimed welfare payments, though my ex-wife does claim children's allowance which is a social transfer.
Many retired people who worked in the private and public sectors claim a State pension that they came nowhere close to funding.
I my case I've already paid way more in social insurance that would be needed to fund the State pension I'll get but many haven't.

When you say "work shy" do you mean people who don't work but can? Does that include stay at home parents? Does it include people who choose to work part time instead of fulltime?
It's not just the "work shy" who are getting hand-outs that they haven't paid for. Given that it cost the State €7000-€8000 each year to educate a child I'd guess that most middle income families are major net recipients from the State, not to mention working families in social housing, so it's not about who is working and who isn't; it's about who needs it and who doesn't.
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It is explained here on the link you shared:
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpu...vingconditionssilc2020/povertyanddeprivation/
 
Silversurfer said:
Yes and God helps those who help themselves.
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I think we should stick to facts and leave the supernatural out of it, especially if you are a believer since the phrase doesn't appear in the Bible and Christian teaching espouses a belief that reliance on God and oneself are complementary.
Since I don't believe in magic of any sort and consider religion to be, for the most part, disgusting, I think that cooperation and morality are genetically advantageous traits which enable communal living and an advanced society in which we care for those who are not genetically related to us. That's why I'm okay with half my total income being taken in income taxes. That's the price we pay for civilisation.

I just don't believe rich people should get social transfers they don't need. You seem to think that they do which, to come full circle on this, goes against your belief that "God helps those who help themselves" unless you mean "helping themselves to money that should go to the needy". That's not very Christian of you (or, come to think of it, maybe it is).
 
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