I see my parents using the free travel, going to places they otherwise might not go and spending money they might not otherwise spend. I would guess (without evidence) that it could be a net positive for the economy.
Should we get rid of free travel of OAPs?
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T McGibney
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The lad down the country happily milking his 40 cows every morning and evening will say exactly the same about what he does.
And he'd be wrong because if more people are taking public transport and eliminating car journeys there is a net reduction in the fuel usage, cars, noise pollution etc.
Where is the net reduction in emissions from the lad down the country?
T McGibney
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You just admitted in one of your last posts that "I see my parents using the free travel, going to places they otherwise might not go and spending money they might not otherwise spend."
No sign of any net reduction in the fuel usage, cars, noise pollution there.
In the same place as your parents'.
If everyone in Limerick took public transport and all car journeys were eliminated there would be far less emissions / congestion etc..
There may be some 'unnecessary' journeys but there would be a net reduction in emissions overall.
T McGibney
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If everyone in Limerick took more 'unnecessary' journeys, going to places they otherwise might not go, that would entail an increase in emissions.
Take the free travel away from OAP's as I see it is very insulting to that group. Most didn't have the opportunity to go further in education, worked very hard in their day, paid their dues, ensured the educated population of today got their 3rd level chance and an awful lot more. I haven't got the figures showing what free travel costs v what it takes in by giving the older age group a chance to travel and spend. I'd imagine it's costing very little, but what a sad state of affairs that some want to take it away from their parents/grandparents. Some are even wanting to decrease their pension, and as much else as they can strip from a very vulnerable group. Thankfully in the coming years the group will become many, will mostly vote, are well wired into what's going on and some are in a position to decide who gets what in families going forward. Oh, forgot to add, most love a fight and would relish the scenario should some political party, or their offshoots bring in cuts to what they've paid towards for for many decades. We may be grey, but that does not allow anyone make hay.
Brendan Burgess
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Hi noproblem
That is the problem with your argument. They are the least vulnerable group, financially, at least.
Retired people are at a much lower risk of poverty than younger people
Interesting data from the ESRI https://www.esri.ie/publications/poverty-income-inequality-and-living-standards-in-ireland
www.askaboutmoney.com
It should be means tested for OAP''s.
It's one thing to ask should we get rid of free travel for OAP's but the question that demands an answer is whether given the power of the grey vote whether any Government would be rash enough to commit political suicide - I think we all know the answer to that one !
Unrestricted free travel on public transport is here to stay.
Unrestricted free travel on public transport is here to stay.
The ESRI report only touches on what it proports to establish as fact, then spews it out as factual data for economists to follow.
The fact is older people are saving others a fortune in todays world. What would older parents (by choice) do today with their family and work situation if it wasn't for grandparents minding their children, their marriages too in a lot of cases. Grannies and granddads in very very many cases are helping to pay mortgages for their children. Other families and single grown up children are moving back in with their pensioner parents. There's much more of this unseen and seldom mentioned economic and phycological hardship being funded by extremely hard pressed elders, but take care would this be ever mentioned? Lots of house-hunters today are given the deposit for buying their house by pensioners, in lots of cases the old people leave themselves broke in doing so and will never see their money again. I could go on and on, but nobody listens, just go on about them having the money in assets, etc, and why wouldn't they give it to the next generation. I really do personally feel that some try and put down the older generation, I feel it's a duty for the likes of me to stand up for them as I've recently moved into the pensioner generation also. Yes, I'm comfortable, enjoy going away on holiday, enjoy some free travel, have helped my children, am helping with my grandchildren, as is my other half. Some weeks would see 1 of us in the west and the other in the east helping out with childminding, cooking, cleaning, money, shopping, schooling, etc. We are but one couple among thousands upon thousands doing this and we don't get paid for what sometimes is a full time job. Is there data for this from the ESRI or similar penpushers? You can bet your life there isn't.
Just trying to put a bit of perspective on the situation and hope you might see things as they really are, not what collected so called data is saying.
The fact is older people are saving others a fortune in todays world. What would older parents (by choice) do today with their family and work situation if it wasn't for grandparents minding their children, their marriages too in a lot of cases. Grannies and granddads in very very many cases are helping to pay mortgages for their children. Other families and single grown up children are moving back in with their pensioner parents. There's much more of this unseen and seldom mentioned economic and phycological hardship being funded by extremely hard pressed elders, but take care would this be ever mentioned? Lots of house-hunters today are given the deposit for buying their house by pensioners, in lots of cases the old people leave themselves broke in doing so and will never see their money again. I could go on and on, but nobody listens, just go on about them having the money in assets, etc, and why wouldn't they give it to the next generation. I really do personally feel that some try and put down the older generation, I feel it's a duty for the likes of me to stand up for them as I've recently moved into the pensioner generation also. Yes, I'm comfortable, enjoy going away on holiday, enjoy some free travel, have helped my children, am helping with my grandchildren, as is my other half. Some weeks would see 1 of us in the west and the other in the east helping out with childminding, cooking, cleaning, money, shopping, schooling, etc. We are but one couple among thousands upon thousands doing this and we don't get paid for what sometimes is a full time job. Is there data for this from the ESRI or similar penpushers? You can bet your life there isn't.
Just trying to put a bit of perspective on the situation and hope you might see things as they really are, not what collected so called data is saying.
The problem with means tests like this, and it applies to other similar social benefits, is that it widens the gap between working and saving and not. Large parts of the system is already setup to encourage no saving. The gap at the lower end of working is such that many people are better off not working too which is pretty insane.
Yep, the privileged looking after themselves.
It's actual factual data.
They can do all that because they are rich. There was been a massive and unprecedented concentration of wealth amongst old people during the last property boom. That wealth was lost during the crash but replaced through Quantitative Easing and incurring massive public debt to bail out depositors after the crash. No generation has ever been given more by the generations that followed it. I'm a beneficiary of that wealth transfer but I can see it for what it is.
Yea, that's what families do and have always done for each other.
You get a State pension don't you? You probably didn't pay for that.
I think there is.
So rich people who help out their children and grandchildren should get rewarded by the State with things they don't need. Is that what you are saying? I'd rather see poor pensions get more.
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Yes, there may be local links going around the country half empty bit for those people who do use them, they are a vital part of rural life. Public transport is a social service as much as a transport service.
We're probably seeing a growing number of elderly people who are renting and have no real assets as such. UK figures indicate that the number of pensioners doing so has doubled in the last 10 years and it is fair to say, the same probably applies here. Studies also show that where pensioners are renting, in one third of cases, they were spending more then 35% of their income on rent.
We're probably seeing a growing number of elderly people who are renting and have no real assets as such. UK figures indicate that the number of pensioners doing so has doubled in the last 10 years and it is fair to say, the same probably applies here. Studies also show that where pensioners are renting, in one third of cases, they were spending more then 35% of their income on rent.
NoRegretsCoyote
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Free travel was introduced in the late 1960s for travel at off-peak times. The logic was that (particularly for urban bus services) there is a morning and and evening commuter peak while the service runs all day with spare capacity in the middle of the day. Allowing people to travel for free at off-peak times didn't take away seats from paying passengers, old people invariably have more time on their hands too, so it was a win-win policy.
Fianna Fáil and the PDs abolished this in 2006 (cheered on by Fine Gael) with very little forethought. There are now over a million adults with the right to free travel at all times and who can take up space otherwise occupied by a paying passenger. This has real costs in the way that the scheme as originally designed in the 1960s simply did not.
The simplest way around this is to re-introduce the peak-time restrictions on travel in line with the original logic of the scheme.
Fianna Fáil and the PDs abolished this in 2006 (cheered on by Fine Gael) with very little forethought. There are now over a million adults with the right to free travel at all times and who can take up space otherwise occupied by a paying passenger. This has real costs in the way that the scheme as originally designed in the 1960s simply did not.
The simplest way around this is to re-introduce the peak-time restrictions on travel in line with the original logic of the scheme.
This is a stereotype that is simply no longer true. Many people who grew up in the 70s actually had reasonable access to third-level or found a job at a time the labour market was booming. My parents and their eight siblings are all in their 60s and gradually getting the free travel pass. All of them have household net wealth (house & pension) approaching seven figures and absolutely none of them have any need for free travel. It is a complete free gift and very difficult to justify.
Yes, the reality that income and wealth are two different things is crystallised at retirement.
dereko1969
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Free Travel Pass holders do not generally take seats away from paying customers, Public Transport is not generally full apart from peak times - how many FTP holders do actually travel at peak times on commuter services? In any event the fuller a service the less fuel per person is used so it does have an environmental benefit.
FTP holders have to pay to book seats on intercity train services (€5 a pop) so they risk not getting a seat. In the grand scheme of things this is a pittance and really is a distraction.