Should posters on askaboutmoney be non-judgemental?

Jim Stafford said:
There was one post yesterday

Walked out (emigrated) on joint mortgage in 2014, coming into inheritance soon

which I felt was met with Trumpian Brutality by some other posters.

As LS400 stated in one replying post:
"He may not have handled the situation correctly, but we haven't lived his life these last number of years, and so we don't have the right to slaughter him out. Some of the attacking posts are absolutely disgraceful.

The original poster concerned might have been literally heart broken when his relationship broke up, it might have been the joint owner who had an affair with someone else, he could have hit the bottle, he might still be on anti-depressants etc He might currently have a child with special needs and requires a stable home etc.

Posters should be aware that people are reluctant to provide full details of their circumstances for fear of being identified, and thus they should not be judged as we do not have the full facts.

Posters should be aware that some people seeking help here may be highly stressed, and, in some cases, possibly suicidal. Attacking such posters with Trumpian Brutality is simply unjustified, and the Moderators should immediately remove offensive posts.

AAM has a good reputation for helping people. It should not become a "hate" forum for people to vent their anger and spleen. If it does become that type of forum then it should change its name to "Ask About Malice".

Jim Stafford
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Very good points Jim. I was a little concerned for that poster yesterday evening.Very disappointed in you Brendan, felt like you encouraged this. I was always told if you have nothing good to say, say nothing. You have very good work done for a lot of people Brendan, perhaps if you reach out to this poster privately you might redeem your behaviour.
 
My opinion for what's it's worth is leave as is and use the ability to report a post. This isnt a page whereby we are asking questions or advice from a hand picked group of people. The posters are from all walks of life and backgrounds and so the page offers a truly diverse group of people , each with their own character and skillset, able to answer most if not all queries that are tabled . And let's be honest about this it's free advice which I'm sure has benefited many. Would some people be as quick to hand over €200 to a financial advisor and then ask how to do something illegal or even morally wrong!
 
I have to say I am surprised that so many posters to this thread cannot separate the emotional background from the query.

It should be of no concern if a poster has a special needs child or is distraught after a relationship breakdown. Maybe they have/are and do not wish to share that with the world. Maybe the haven't/aren't but think that saying so will gain sympathy.

The site should obviously not advise people to do anything illegal.

Where a poster is looking at payment demands on debt, should they be told the best way to use the court system to delay and frustrate the creditor. In my opinion yes, many people know how to do this, many others do not realise how lenient a court may be in terms of an installment order tec.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
I don't agree at all.

People should pay their debts if they can.
If they can't pay their debts, they should engage with the lender and their joint borrowers.

If they don't pay their debts, the rest of us do.



Brendan
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While I agree with this, the reality is that some people are better informed on the entirely legal ways to avoid debts and frustrate creditors than others. I think AAM should make information available equally to all.
 
cremeegg said:
delay and frustrate the creditor.
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This is a very one-sided and skewed way of looking at things. What about the creditors? Some creditors are small businesses who rely on cashflow and under your approach you would have them left unpaid, frustrated by debtors playing around with the legal system.

Debtors who can pay, should.

Those who can’t pay should engage with whoever (creditors, lawyers, PIPs, MABS, courts etc) to try and better their lot. But to suggest that debtors should embark on frustrating creditors nearly for its own sake, and that this forum should facilitate that, is highly questionable to say the least.

AAM should not become a rogues’ refuge for those seeking ways to avoid their responsibilities.
 
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cremeegg said:
Where a poster is looking at payment demands on debt, should they be told the best way to use the court system to delay and frustrate the creditor. In my opinion yes, many people know how to do this, many others do not realise how lenient a court may be in terms of an installment order tec.
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This paragraph particularly concerned me. Frustrating a creditor is affecting workers wages. We are all required to adhere to some norms in society and paying your debts is one of them. If people genuinely cant then that's fair enough. Some people fall on hard times etc.

If we all adopted this mentality then why bother paying for anything?
 
Early Riser said:
Where does this moral rectitude leave threads such as "Strategic Transfer of Pensions Overseas" ?
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It’s a really interesting point.

Tax evasion is deliberate illegal behaviour.

Tax avoidance is planning where there’s a tax motivation against the spirit of the legislation.

Bona fide tax planning is availing of a relief, exemption, or provision that is specifically legal and not “contrary to the intention of parliament”. Pension transfers to somewhere like Malta are in line with the concept of free movement of capital as set out in the Treaty of Rome and agreed by European nations.

Contrast that with a loan agreement where someone borrows funds and is scheduled to pay them back. Finding loopholes to avoid paying what’s owed is against the spirit of the agreement.
 
Zenith63 said:
not relying on good will to pay debts or Brendan’s moderation skills in keeping knowledge of the loopholes out of sight.
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Would these be the same sort of 'loopholes' that were discussed at length and indeed promoted and encouraged in many lengthy threads such as? :-

Key Post - I switched 4 times in 6 months

Good luck with that. Just got my latest €6000 yesterday from EBS and looking back at my bank statements i got €6000 from PTSB on 02/07/18, then €6000 from BOI on 20/08/18 and then €6000 from EBS on 30/01/19. As you can see i jump straight away from PTSB to BOI but EBS were extremely slow . The...
www.askaboutmoney.com

Utilising subterfuge and non disclosure to line your pockets with as much money as possible in as short a time as possible was hardly in 'keeping with the spirit' of the scheme.
And who pays for this abuse? Every other bank customer who didn't avail of this bending (to the point of breaking) of the rules , that's who.

Then a person comes on here, enquiring as to how he can minimise his liabilities and the very same forum, that endorsed the above, puts on its 'holier than thou' hat and takes the moral high ground and absolutely berates and castigates him.
'Let he who is without sin .........' springs to mind.

I thought that particular thread was an absolute unmitigated thundering disgrace!
It reminded me of a pack of hyenas, each trying to outdo each other, with their self righteous rebuking and reviling of the poster.
We knew next to nothing about that particular poster, zilch, nada, nowt but many posters didn't let that get in the way of passing judgement.

So to answer the question of this thread title, a big resounding YES!
Who are we to judge anybody, I'd like to think I would never be so arrogant.
 
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Gordon Gekko said:
Tax evasion is deliberate illegal behaviour.

Tax avoidance is planning where there’s a tax motivation against the spirit of the legislation.

Bona fide tax planning is availing of a relief, exemption, or provision that is specifically legal and not “contrary to the intention of parliament”. Pension transfers to somewhere like Malta are in line with the concept of free movement of capital as set out in the Treaty of Rome and agreed by European nations.
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I am not exactly familiar with this area and I may be misunderstanding. But there seems to be a very narrow line between the second and third option, ie, tax avoidance where the motivation is against the spirit of the law and "bone fide" tax planning.

Again my lack of understanding is probably the issue, but there appears to be discussion about how to move pension funds abroad in a way that technically scrapes past the "bone fide" smell test (or gives the appearance of doing so) even where the primary motivation of the applicant may be to avoid tax rather than bone fide reasons. I don't recall many posts starting from the point of "I am moving abroad in X circumstancs and will this meet the criteria for bone fides?". Rather the thrust of approach (explicit or implicit) seems more about "how can I meet, or not be challenged about, the bone fide criteria so that I can avoid Irish tax liabilities?".

Anyway, I am ill-equiped to discuss the details of the issue. My more general point is whether ethical scruples apply equally to the area of avoiding pension taxes in a way that "is against the spirit of the law" as they would to, say, "avoiding paying debts in a way that is against the spirit of the law"?

Or, do scruples apply equally to those to have availed of generous reliefs to build up large pension pots and want to avoid tax at drawdown as they would to someone who has fallen into debt and wants to avoid repaying?
 
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For a nation of "cute hoors" the tone is distinctly moralising and often unhelpful when it comes to looking for a loophole/getout/scheme on AAM.

As an aside, there is also a certain poster who seems to like randomly seizing upon posts with an antagonistic feminist agenda, which usually goes unchecked or is upheld by the moderators
 
ATC110 said:
As an aside, there is also a certain poster who seems to like randomly seizing upon posts with an antagonistic feminist agenda, which usually goes unchecked or is upheld by the moderators
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I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to. In fact, I am not even sure what you mean.

Every post has a Report button

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If you think a post is in breach of the Posting Guidelines or in some way inappropriate then report it. The mods will review it. Most reports are of clear breaches and action is taken. Some reports are rejected, but usually because we have to strike a balance between having a lively discussion and tending towards personal abuse.

If you feel that a particular poster is repeatedly causing trouble, then report a few of their posts which you feel are antagonistic.

Brendan
 
I do think people posting here with a financial issue often

(a) do not give all the relevant information because
They are afraid of being identified
They are completely muddled
They are so emotional about the issue it clouds their ability to give the relevant info

(b) They feel others have escaped their exact same predicament but do not know how to, so want to figure out their options

(c) Are looking for the best steps to take that will cost them the least amount of money and give the best returns

(d). Have gotten advice from others, whether professional or otherwise and want to sense check if they missed something or if the advice is on the right track.

I don’t think other posters should assume they know the motivation or the understanding of the poster until the poster re-engages with the forum by responding or answering a few times.

So there are a few who think the forum will give them the get rich quick scheme or the avoid paying what you owe scheme but most are probably trying to figure out if I do a and b or else x and y which is the best for me in my individual circumstances.
 
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