Serious Defeciencies in Public Health System (esp A&E).

[Leper]

so why couldn't I get a chair when several available? Three weeks after getting two discs out I have to stand while the porters stand outside smoking, on their ipads?

The inability to supply you with a chair has nothing whatsoever to do with the administrative or portering staff or medical staff. Anybody in A+E will inform you the patient comes first (sometimes I dispute this). Furthermore, people are entitled to a break. You are splitting hairs here and have been diverted from your main issue which now appears to be watered down. You had my sympathy at the start of this subject and now with respect I wonder if you are telling the full truth.

Somebody earlier pointed out the faults of our health system rests with vested interests. Somebody else blamed the trades unions (another mistake).

If you are looking for a target to shoot at, please pick the correct target and stop complaining about your relatively minor side issues about a chair.

 

[Firefly]

Somebody earlier pointed out the faults of our health system rests with vested interests. Somebody else blamed the trades unions (another mistake).

If you are looking for a target to shoot at, please pick the correct target and stop complaining about your relatively minor side issues about a chair.

Hi Leper,


Just out of curiosity..who do you blame for the state of the health system?

 

[Purple]

Hi Leper,


Just out of curiosity..who do you blame for the state of the health system?

It seems that it's not the fault of the people who work in it or run it so I'm also curious.

 

[Leper]

Hi Leper,


Just out of curiosity..who do you blame for the state of the health system?

I am going to answer this question as best I can and to the best of my ability. Please bear in mind I do not have a university education and never aspired to the heights of any kind of senior management anywhere.

The Health Service did not drop into its existing dreadful state overnight. It happened over many years. I remember a time when people from the Irish Health Service were recruited from foreign health services to improve healthcare in those countries. Those countries now have health services that are the envy of us.

I am not going to go down the road of the Blame Game either. We have had enough of that. The criticism of the OP of several low paid HSE grades is testament to somebody believing what vested interests are telling him. Furthermore, we hear daily of front-line services and back-room support staff. I believe the whole service should work as a cohesive team. This is something ignored by politicians and the media - divide and conquer syndrome.

The UK has a terrific health service. If we copy what they do well, then we are on the road to restoring our Health Service to what it should be.I dont know why the HSE is not going this direction already. Afterall, our population would comfortably fit into the greater Manchester area and we would not be even noticed. Obviously, the effort in Ireland must be a scaled down replica. We need private hospitals and public hospitals to be run by private and public interests respectively.
In Ireland we have hospitals that are simultaneously private and public. It appears this is not working and until senior management start managing we are doomed to failure.

I hope this answers the questions poised.

 

[DB74]

As far as I can see, the problem with the Health Service is that all the vested interest groups within the system recognise that there are huge problems that need to be sorted in the Health Service but none of them are prepared to be the first group to make the necessary sacrifices to sort those problems. They all want one (or even all) of the other groups to be dealt with first before the problems with their own group is looked at.

I would roughly lump those groups as (in alphabetical order)

Administration
Consultants
Doctors
Nurses

 

[celebtastic]

I would roughly lump those groups as (in alphabetical order)

Administration
Consultants
Doctors
Nurses

Patients?

Taxpayers??

The latter two categories are so often treated with contempt

Little wonder the country is in the mess that its in

 

[Complainer]

It's a bit worrying that for most people the solution seems to be 'get to private hospital' (and leave the plebs to suffer in the mayhem) rather than actually fixing the problem.

 

[celebtastic]

The amount we are paying in public sector salaries, and not just in the Health service, is now completely unaffordable.

If the government had a spine they would protect delivery of front line services while cutting ALL public sector pay (inc the dole, Childrens Allowance and the OAP) by 10% across the piece.

"We're all in it together" -- isnt that right?

 

[Deiseblue]

The amount we are paying in public sector salaries, and not just in the Health service, is now completely unaffordable.

If the government had a spine they would protect delivery of front line services while cutting ALL public sector pay (inc the dole, Childrens Allowance and the OAP) by 10% across the piece.

"We're all in it together" -- isnt that right?

Your wish is granted & then some !

Public Sector salaries have been cut by an average of 15 %.

 

[Complainer]

The amount we are paying in public sector salaries, and not just in the Health service, is now completely unaffordable.

If the government had a spine they would protect delivery of front line services while cutting ALL public sector pay (inc the dole, Childrens Allowance and the OAP) by 10% across the piece.

"We're all in it together" -- isnt that right?

I don't get the logic of 'we're all in it together, but only one sector will take the pain'. If we're all in it together, then we should all be sharing the pain - right? So income tax increases, and cuts to pension tax relief and lots of other tax reliefs would ensure that all others who are still earning will share the pain, given that the public sector have already given their across the board 15% pay cut.

 

[celebtastic]

I don't get the logic of 'we're all in it together, but only one sector will take the pain'. If we're all in it together, then we should all be sharing the pain - right? ...

Not while public sector earnings are almost 50% higher than the equivalent in the private sector:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/re...cuments/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q22012.pdf

Not while automatic pay increments of €200m are doled out based mainly on length of service - effectively a pay rise by the back door

Not while Brendan Howlin, a former trade union official who could only find €3.5million of savings on €1.1billion of allowances. In July, he stated that increments were ‘core pay’. So, pay rises are actually now part of core pay according to our government.

With the private sector seeing hundreds of businesses going bankrupt each year - and the dole and emigration queues lengthening, there needs to be a radical overhaul of public sector pay and pensions.

The unions seemed happy enough with that for new entrants - why not have the same rules for existing public servants? As they keep telling us: "we are all in this together"

 

[celebtastic]

Fully agree that pension tax relief, and universal benefits (OAP and Childrens Allowance uplift for second and later kids) should be dramitcally cut.

 

[Leper]

The subject is now turning into a Public Service Bashing Exercise. Like I said earlier "Divide and Conquer" syndrome predominates. . . . and still there are none of the people who caused Ireland's mess in prison. Worse again we retired them, gave them large lump sums and huge pensions to boot. Terrific little country we are and we keep pointing our guns at small increments for many who are on the breadline. Thank you corrupt politicians and corrupt and avaricious bankers.

 

[celebtastic]

So any attempt to discuss the immorality and unaffordability of pay levels being maintained, while services are cut to the bone is a public sector bashing?

Its that sort of divide and conquer argument that completely stifles debate on the elephant in the room.

 

[Complainer]

Not while public sector earnings are almost 50% higher than the equivalent in the private sector:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/re...cuments/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q22012.pdf

That survey shows nothing of the sort. You haven't controlled for job function, or qualifications, or experience, or skill. Simply put, the public sector does not have large numbers of unskilled or no skilled front line staff, like waiting staff, retail staff, call centre jockeys etc etc. So it is not at all surprising that AVERAGE earnings are higher in the public sector, because AVERAGE job functions are higher, and AVERAGE qualifications are higher. That's the danger of averages.

Not while automatic pay increments of €200m are doled out based mainly on length of service - effectively a pay rise by the back door

Not while Brendan Howlin, a former trade union official who could only find €3.5million of savings on €1.1billion of allowances. In July, he stated that increments were ‘core pay’. So, pay rises are actually now part of core pay according to our government.

Howlin was never a trade union official. Increments are dependant on performance, and apply generally to the first ten years of employment at any particular grade only. They generally apply to the younger, more junior staff, the newer entrants that you express concern about below. And yes, increments are part of core pay. And the slavish Irish Indo-driven focus on increments is missing the point entirely, but do feel free to keep banging the drum.

With the private sector seeing hundreds of businesses going bankrupt each year - and the dole and emigration queues lengthening, there needs to be a radical overhaul of public sector pay and pensions.

The unions seemed happy enough with that for new entrants - why not have the same rules for existing public servants? As they keep telling us: "we are all in this together"

The unions seemed happy enough with that for new entrants - why not have the same rules for existing public servants? As they keep telling us: "we are all in this together"

How do you conclude that the unions are 'happy enough' with the current arrangements for new entrants?

With the private sector seeing hundreds of businesses going bankrupt each year - and the dole and emigration queues lengthening, there needs to be a radical overhaul of public sector pay and pensions.

We certainly need a radical overhaul all right. Even the IMF agree that the current austerity model is not working. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/imf-we-got-effect-of-austerity-wrong-210285.html And you seem to want to drive further down the wrong road.

 

[Firefly]

It's a bit worrying that for most people the solution seems to be 'get to private hospital' (and leave the plebs to suffer in the mayhem) rather than actually fixing the problem.

I agree, the solution seems to be to get to a private hospital alright, alas, the 20 thousand million we spend on the public system doesn't seem to be working.

As for who fixes the problem (and I'm amazed you agree there is a problem). I hardly think it should be the OPs father stuck on a trolley do you?

 

[Bronte]

If you are looking for a target to shoot at, please pick the correct target and stop complaining about your relatively minor side issues about a chair.

Don't you think that whether people are on a break or not that they could show some common decency and get a man who cannot stand a chair?

I've some more questions about this story, but it's not asked directly of you Leper for the replies.

Why are there no pillows available in a Dublin hospital?

Why would urine by left on the floor and not immediately be cleaned up?

Why would someone have to spend a week on a trolly?

Why would a nurse rap someone on the feet to wake them up instead of gently waking them?

What protocal prevents a staff member from giving a chair to a visitor?

Why would a patient not be given water?

Why would a patient's family member have to contact a GP to get test results from a hospital, why in other words weren't the results immediately given to the patient by the staff? Is this not what happens in hospitals?

 

[Firefly]

First you say

Simply put, the public sector does not have large numbers of unskilled or no skilled front line staff, like waiting staff, retail staff, call centre jockeys

Then you say (different thread)

I've had some success using the Garda Trafficwatch phone line. You log the issue initially with their call centre staff, and then it gets transferred (by fax - hello 1983!) to the relevant station. I get the impression that there is a bit of pressure somewhere to follow up on the logged issues.

Why not refer to the former as "staff" then, or to the latter as "jockeys"?

 

[Bronte]

I'm a bit lost. What is a call center jockey?

 

[Firefly]

I'm a bit lost. What is a call center jockey?

That makes two of us Bronte. It sounds like a derogatory term to me but perhaps we'll be enlightened?