Security staff on LUAS

Not too much of a rant really, more curiosity.

I recently saw 5 security staff surround two people who got off a tram and demand to see their tickets. They wouldn't let them leave and I imagine it was a very intimidating situation to be in for the two people.

I don't know if they had tickets or not, as I kept on going. I also don't know if they were observed by the staff to be "scarpering" off the tram because they saw that ticket inspectors were getting on.

Basically, I'm wondering if its legal to detain someone like that? Don't think I'd be too happy about it if that's the case.

Not legal at all.

Neither is it legal to travel without a ticket!

it could be that the people being approached by security had been intimidating people on the luas, and the driver had called in for assistance.
I've seen druggies being very aggressive to other passengers, and 2-3 stops later they are escorted off by security. It could be the 'show me your ticket' is the standard opening line for dealing with them.

Interesting question. I've seen them doing this at Luas stops before too but never really thought about the rights and wrongs of it.

I think the surrounding thing is one of those approaches to take when you want to detain someone but don't want to physically hold them. The basic theory is that you surround them but don't touch them, then if they get aggressive and push their way out it is they who have initiated any assault that might get mentioned in court. If you grab them and prevent them from leaving then you can be guilty of assault, whereas if you just surround them and ask for their ticket then there is no assault.

I imagine the security people would need to be pretty sure of the situation before doing that - I would not be impressed to be prevented from moving by a load of big burly guys. However, if I gave them my ticket and all was in order then I presume they would have to let me move on.

z

Still false imprisonment though, Preventing them from leaving amounts to unlawful detention, Luas employees do not have the power of arrest or detention.

I don't know anything about Irish law in this regard. Is it true that assault must include a physical attack? Taking it to the extreme, what would happen if a bunch of men surrounded a woman in such a manner and wouldn't let her leave?

This reminds me as well of the time clampers surrounded a car that was trying to leave with their vans while they clamped it . Can't remember what happened after that.

bond-007 said:

Still false imprisonment though, Preventing them from leaving amounts to unlawful detention, Luas employees do not have the power of arrest or detention.

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What about supermarket security staff who wait for shoplifters to leave the building before they nab them?

I don't think that supermarket security can restrain a person either.

It is an interesting question. I was on a luas (for the first time and thought it was great) where I saw a poor guy trying to validate kids tickets. The kids were basically laughing at him saying things like I lost it/I forgot it etc. He was getting no where with them. I felt terrible for him. He said something like "you have to have a valid ticket" and they just laughed and ran off the luas as it pulled into the next stop.

Here in Switzerland (where they are really serious about checking tickets) in that situation the staff would accompany the person off the train. You have to give the security guy your address and details before they leave your side. If youve forgotten your ticket you are issued with a fine - You then need to return to the station with the valid ticket at a later point and if it was valid for that time the fine was issued you just pay 5chf (about 3 euro) but if its not (ie you were bluffing) you pay the full fine 80chf. They are really strict, I recently changed train thinking it might be a bit faster but forgot that my ticket didnt cover a small bit of that route (one extra station about less than a mile outside my valid zone and would have cost the same if I had had chosen that route), the ticket guys were on, I got a fine, the full 80chf. The thing is it works. Very few people fare evade.

I felt so sorry for that security guy operating on his own on the luas. That group of kids were just young girls (maybe about 12?) but showed him no respect.

I hate saying this but to get people to treat a public transport system with respect they have to be hard. I dont condone violence or any illegal activities but they do need to be hard and that is a bit intimidating. Only then will people start respecting the system. In fairness why did that staff need to surround those 2 people? If theyd produced their tickets or information for the fine surely it wouldnt have been necessary in the first place?

They need to give Luas inspectors statuatory powers to deal with evaders.

In fairness why did that staff need to surround those 2 people? If theyd produced their tickets or information for the fine surely it wouldnt have been necessary in the first place?

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It didn't seem to me that they were asked to produce anything before they were surrounded. It seemed that the staff were taking preventative action in case they did not have a valid ticket.

bond-007 said:

They need to give Luas inspectors statuatory powers to deal with evaders.

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Realistically what can you do though? Give them the power of arrest?

shanegl said:

It didn't seem to me that they were asked to produce anything before they were surrounded. It seemed that the staff were taking preventative action in case they did not have a valid ticket.

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Well we dont know, you said yourself at the beginning of the thread you didnt see.

shanegl said:

Realistically what can you do though? Give them the power of arrest?

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I don't know if here the instructor has the power of arrest (I actually has a friend who does this job here so Ill ask him and find out) but my sympathies do not lie with fare evaders at all.

Im glad to see that the security staff are enforcing valid ticket purchase. That will make the luas the success it deserves to be.

Well we dont know, you said yourself at the beginning of the thread you didnt see.

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That's not what I said. They were definately surrounded as they stepped off the tram. It wasn't a case of refusing to show a valid ticket and then trying to leave, requiring the staff to stop them.

What I didn't see is if they ran to the back of the tram to exit and try and avoid the inspectors who were getting on, raising the suspicions of the staff.

shanegl said:

That's not what I said. They were definately surrounded as they stepped off the tram. It wasn't a case of refusing to show a valid ticket and then trying to leave, requiring the staff to stop them.

What I didn't see is if they ran to the back of the tram to exit and try and avoid the inspectors who were getting on, raising the suspicions of the staff.

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I personally feel that 5 security staff would not surround 2 people without due cause - something serious happened (just my opinion) - but if you feel they were mistreated in some way or have concerns about the security staff procedures on the luas you should contact the luas directly about it.

This is all speculation anyway, the purpose of the OP was to see if security staff can behave this way legally in public, whatever the reason. Seems its a bit of an open question.

shanegl said:

Seems its a bit of an open question.

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I do agree - and there is no mention of how this is dealt with in their passenger charter:

[broken link removed]

Though the charter does say all trams have CC-Tv, so if something illegal did happen it should be on record if you wanted to follow it up.

I might actually email them today and see how they respond.

A private citizen has the right of arrest when something illegal has been done- citizens arrest. So if you are held for shoplifting and it turns out you did it, the 'arrester' is fine. If you are held and it turns out you were innocent, the 'arrester' becomes someone who kept you illegally and they can be in trouble. Same principle here.