secondary school teachers doing orals

[seantheman]

So you're suggesting that 'newly retired teachers' be engaged to do the orals - which would be more expensive that using existing teachers.

It sounds like that statement was written with certainty wheras i'll refer you back to my 'probable' in the OP

 

[Complainer]

It sounds like that statement was written with certainty wheras i'll refer you back to my 'probable' in the OP

No, I wouldn't use the term 'suggesting' where I want to mean 'certainty'. But really, shouldn't you have checked it out before casting aspersions?

 

[armelodie]

The whole idea of using retired teachers really sickens me.
If they're retired then they're retired. Why would we want to bring them out of retirement. It's like hollywood flogging the movie sequels for fear of taking a risk on something new.
What would be really prudent and 'just' is engaging in some way with the hundreds of recently qualified unemployed teachers who could be utilised in the area of superintending,marking,examining,supervision,substitution, orals/practicals etc...
The counter argument is usually 'someone more experienced would be more suitable' but really, even doctors are trusted with peoples lives straight after graduating. Do we not trust younger teachers?

 

[seantheman]

So you're suggesting that 'newly retired teachers' be engaged to do the orals - which would be more expensive that using existing teachers.

Re-read your quote
I suggest that 'newly retired teachers' be engaged to do orals.
You state that this would be more expensive than using existing teachers.

 

[GoldWings]

good point armelodie

 

[BoscoTalking]

+ 1 Armelodie,

newly qualified language teachers can surely conduct an oral exam?

 

[orka]

Just noticed this thread now. The Irish Times education supplement did a small piece on this a couple of weeks ago. Teachers doing orals are paid €37 per hour extra on top of their salaries to do orals in a school other than their own. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, their own school has to do without classes for the missing teacher or pay a substitute. Absolute madness. It should be part of their contract that they have to do oral exams in other schools - or maybe they can get paid to do orals elsewhere but the (presumably lower) cost of a substitute gets netted off their own salary.

 

[Complainer]

Just noticed this thread now. The Irish Times education supplement did a small piece on this a couple of weeks ago. Teachers doing orals are paid €37 per hour extra on top of their salaries to do orals in a school other than their own. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, their own school has to do without classes for the missing teacher or pay a substitute. Absolute madness. It should be part of their contract that they have to do oral exams in other schools - or maybe they can get paid to do orals elsewhere but the (presumably lower) cost of a substitute gets netted off their own salary.

Assuming that [broken link removed], it says that teachers get "up to €37 per hour" (my emphasis) for doing these orals elsewhere. It does seem very strange that they are paid twice for doing the same day's work, particularly if they are also paid travel expenses for going to the other school. I can't see any details of these schemes in the Dept's list of circulars.

If anyone has specific details on this, I and others would be very interested to see them.

 

[orka]

Assuming that [broken link removed], it says that teachers get "up to €37 per hour" (my emphasis) for doing these orals elsewhere.

Fair enough - I just remember the figure of €37 per hour making me choke on my cornflakes. But is 'up to' supposed to make us feel better? "It's okay, only some of them get €37"... It's still the case that teachers are getting paid extra for work done during school hours when they should be doing the main job they are paid to do.
Schools/teachers should do as suggested earlier in this thread, although I think 'you do mine and I'll do yours' might not appear independent enough. Maybe have it so that school A does school B, school B does school C, school C does school D and school D does school A.

 

[Complainer]

Yep, the €37 figure seems crazy, unless there is some particular reason for it. That's why I was looking for the Departmental circular to explain what is actually going on. Seems strange that it's not available.

I'd guess that they probably have a circular arrangement for rotating teachers, rather than a straight reciprocal arrangement, but again, you'd really need to see the circular to be sure.

 

[Marion]

It might be off topic but are consultants in our hospitals not in the same situation?

Do they receive income from private patients while they are in the care of a public hospital?

Perhaps all this double income might be addressed at the same time

I'm sure others will be able to point out other anomalies.

I haven't a clue what teachers earn while doing orals.

Marion

 

[Complainer]

It might be off topic but are consultants in our hospitals not in the same situation?

Do they receive income from private patients while they are in the care of a public hospital?

I think it's a different scenario. If consultants were going to other public hospitals and being paid extra for treating public patients in those public hospitals, then it would be the same situation.

 

[Marion]

OK true. I suspect it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a public funded teacher will end up doing orals in a private school? But I'm not sure of this.

Perhaps as I mentioned all this double income that occurs in some form in public institutions might be dealt with at the same time.


Marion

 

[Complainer]

OK true. I suspect it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a public funded teacher will end up doing orals in a private school? But I'm not sure of this.

Any idea on where we might find the detailed regulations to confirm or deny what actually happens?

Perhaps as I mentioned all this double income that occurs in some form in public institutions might be dealt with at the same time.

Indeed.

 

[Firefly]

So the school loans some resources, and then gets resources back on loan. It all comes out in the wash.

No really. If one school "loses" a teacher to orals who is teaching 1st years whereas another school "loses" a teacher who is teaching
a LC class, then the pupils in the latter school are worse off. Surely, an easy solution here is for the principal to only allow non-LC teachers to leave for orals?

 

[orka]

It's strange how difficult it is to find information on this but from some quick searches it looks like there is no scope for schools to have reciprocal or rotating arrangements for compulsory Leaving Cert orals. Assistant Examiners are recruited by the State Examination Commission ( see ). The applicant's school (principal or deputy) must sign/stamp the application form to confirm they are okay with the teacher being absent from their post for the duration of the oral exams. Examiners are paid (there's no mention of rates but method of payment is discussed) and the following applicants are excluded:

The following persons will not be eligible for appointment:
(a) Teachers who have taken early retirement under Strand 1 of the Early Retirement Scheme for teachers.
(b) Teachers who are on paid Statutory Maternity Leave at the time of Conferences and Oral Examining period.
(c) Teachers who are on paid/unpaid sick leave.
(d) Teachers in receipt of disability pension. *

The only other major discussion is on the teachers unions websites where there seems to have been an issue with optional Junior Certificate orals NOT being eligible for payment and the unions wanted these paid similar to Leaving cert orals. For the optional JC orals, many schools seem to have done these themselves (against the wishes of the unions) or had reciprocal arrangements or paid external examiners themselves.