Rip Offs

[ClubMan]

These are the 'visible' taxes we are all aware of. Trouble is, as soon as you go to spend any of your already taxed income, you'll end up paying hidden taxes, duties, charges and levies. These are the cause of Rip Off Ireland.

Can you give me a simple, everyday example please?

(Very few goods are 0% VAT, take a stroll around Musgraves)

What about all those items (usually "essential" food and household items) marked 0% on till receipts?

Just as well you don't have a car, because petrol alone has about 3 different taxes and duties - not including petrol station corporation taxes, public liability Gov levies etc, etc... It really adds up.

We don't have a car because we don't need a car and choose to walk, cycle (not so much in recent years though) or travel by public transport when we need to at which point we can avail of several bus routes, train and Luas locally. I guess this would fall into the category of "intangible quality of life issues" that people have been talking about (usually negatively) previously in this thread? We have the Phoenix Park and the National Museum almost literally on our doorstep. We have plenty of other parks and public amenities within walking distance. We live within spitting distance of the sex offenders and other miscreants in Arbour Hill Prison and have never had any problems with the place which seems to be very well run and excellently maintained (in particular the scenic grounds that front it).

Before anybody thinks that we live in some Utopian corner of Dublin 7 - we don't - but we certainly don't believe that we live a life totally oppressed by high taxes and rip-off prices and spend our time moaning about how bad we have it.

 

[Lemurz]

Clubman,

In the interest of equity I pay..........

- 48% tax/PRSI on the majority of my income
- 12.5% VAT on ESB/GAS (necessities)
- 21% VAT on phone costs, petrol, parking, white goods (so called luxury items?)
- TV licence €152 (+€30 p.m. minimum to watch anything decent on it)
- €6 per week for bin tags/collection (included in income tax until 2003)
- stamp duty @ 4% on a basic 3 bed semi
- no CGT payable (unfortunately!)
- pension relief @ 48% (if I last long enough to see the payout)
- no children, so no maternity benefit or child allowance
- never been unemployed (thank god), but the payout is miserable
- have an SSIA (once off & biggest mistake Charlie ever made)
- significant health expenses (even after VHI, DDS & tax relief)

Not to mention....
- DIRT on any savings I have
- VRT, VAT, Motor Tax, & Tolls to drive a car on sh*te roads
- Excise duty & VAT on any beer/wine I can afford to consume
- BIK on any benefits I receive
- etc.

 

[ClubMan]

- 48% tax/PRSI on the majority of my income

I very much doubt that this is correct. Add your total tax (after deduction of tax credits) and PRSI/health levy and then express this as a percentage of your gross income to get a more meaningful figure. That's what I did to arrive at our c. 17% figure even though my marginal income tax rate is 42% and my wife's is 20% while I am on class A1 and she is on A0 (?) PRSI. Use [broken link removed] if you need assistance with the calculations.

- TV licence €152 (+€30 p.m. minimum to watch anything decent on it)

But you don't have to pay either.

€6 per week for bin tags/collection (included in income tax until 2003)

Service charges to the local authority should qualify for [broken link removed] on an ongoing basis and not just up to 2003. You can even [broken link removed] for the relevant relief.

- never been unemployed (thank god), but the payout is miserable

The personal rate of Unemployment Benefit is €148.80 per week for an single adult with additional payments for dependents. You say that this is misrerable but you suggest that your TV license at €152 per annum is onerous. That doesn't really add up.

- significant health expenses (even after VHI, SDDS & tax relief)

What's SDDS?

- DIRT on any savings I have

You mean DIRT on any interest that your savings earn - not quite the same thing. There are [broken link removed] that are DIRT free up to certain limits in case that helps.

- Excise duty on any beer/wine I consume

Again, more of a discretionary/luxury purchase than an essential in my opinion (and I like my tipple I can tell you!).

- BIK on any benefits I receive

Do you really think that BIKs should be exempt from tax/PRSI? If so why?

- etc.

What etc.?

 

[Lemurz]

Cheers for the prompt reply Clubman! (insomnia, like me?)

- Just checked the 2004 P60 and the average rate works out at 40% for tax & PRSI (not quite 48%, but not 17% either)
- TV licence I must pay, even if I don't watch it
- Bin charges qualify for tax relief, but I didn't have to pay them until 2003, so I view this as a form of double taxation as they were centrally funded before 2003
- €148 per week unemplyment benefit wouldn't even cover my mortgage
- SDDS = subsided drug discount scheme or whatever it's called (i.e. €85 per month on drugs)
- Credit Unions have been known to go bust, so I'm not prepared to put my hard earned & hard taxed income there.
- I agree BIK's shouldn't be free of income tax, but they were until 2004 so it's a hard pill to swallow!
- etc! (my way of covering the other forms of taxation I've forgotten about tonight!)

Over & out for now!

 

[ClubMan]

- Just checked the 2004 P60 and the average rate works out at 40% for tax & PRSI (not quite 48%, but not 17% either)

So you think that you're being ripped off but initially inflated the alleged rip-off by 20% until you were challenged and consequently rechecked it? Are you sure that you're not ripping yourself off? A common theme with those who cry "rip-off" at every hand's turn seems to be an inability to deal with figures accurately. I still suspect that your calculations are incorrect. Post figures if you like and I personally will crunch them for you.

- TV licence I must pay, even if I don't watch it

But not if you don't have one. A seemingly outrageous proposition to most people these days but if €152 p.a. is such an onerous charge to some people then surely desperate measures can be countenanced?

- Bin charges qualify for tax relief, but I didn't have to pay them until 2003, so I view this as a form of double taxation as they were centrally funded before 2003

Why not view it as a hidden discount before 2003 where somebody else was subsuming the cost of dealing with your waste?

- €148 per week unemplyment benefit wouldn't even cover my mortgage

That wasn't my point. If you think that €148 per week is miserable then you must have a more blasé attitude to money than I do. Some people may also qualify for .

- SDDS = subsided drug discount scheme or what ever it's called (i.e. €85 per month on drugs)

I presume that this is the scheme formerly (?) known as the Drug Refund Scheme. How does that work again? You don't pay for drugs at all or the excess over €85 per month or something like that? Can you explain where the rip-off is here?

- Credit Unions have been known to go bust, so I'm not prepared to put my hard earned & hard taxed income there.

Which Credit Unions are you referring to? Banks have also been known to go bust by the way. Where do you put your money so?

- I agree BIK's shouldn't be free of income tax, but they were until 2004 so it's a hard pill to swallow!

This is not correct. Most BIKs were subject to income tax before this but the onus was on the employee to declare this liability. The fact that many people did not is an example of a genuine rip-off (perpetrated by some citizens on others) since those who were compliant tax payers had to make up the slack. Since 2004 most BIK income tax is deducted and remitted by the employer and most BIKs are also subject to PRSI (not sure if this was the case before the changes). As far as I know the fundamental tax treatment of most BIKs did not change other than that the employer now deducts and remits the amount due instead of it being left to the employee to self assess. Note that there are still a small number of BIKs that are not subject to tax/PRSI deductions. For more on the relevant rules see [broken link removed].

- etc! (my way of covering the other forms of taxation I've forgotten about tonight!)

Sleep on it so.

 

[dam099]

- Just checked the 2004 P60 and the average rate works out at 40% for tax & PRSI (not quite 48%, but not 17% either)

You earn EUR 190,000 per annum and you feel ripped off in Ireland?

 

[ClubMan]

You earn EUR 190,000 per annum and you feel ripped off in Ireland?

Was this mentioned elsewhere or something? If you are reverse engineering the salary from the "gross tax" percentage above then bear in mind that, as far as I know, Lemurz is married.

 

[RainyDay]

Interesting suggestions.

However, you have yet to address the root cause of Rip Off Ireland, which is high taxes.

Well, all those high taxes are going to build up the fund that will act as a safety net to support all those people who are recklessly borrowing against their homes. I take it you don't really want the nasty old 'big Govt' to provide such supports?

 

[Teabag]

If the perceived rip-off's are really important to you, you are more than capable of coming up with your own ways of addressing them. As long as you sit back and wait for someone (Clubman, Govt, EH) to address them for you, they won't get sorted.

In fairness RainyDay, I have tried to address the perceived rip-offs (mainly thru letters to appropriate politicians and one nappy. But as a lone voice I feel I am not making an impact. I think Clubman has some very interesting insights and suggestions. I am sure you do too. Dont fall off the high horse though.

 

[MissRibena]

I know this isn't really adding much to either side of the debate but would just like to say that I'm really enjoying ALL the contributions on this and the Eddie Hobbs threads. I know these discussions are not the primary function of AAM but they are the bit I value most.

While I am not happy with the government spends my taxes (at all!) and believe there is room for huge improvement in public services, on a personal level, I don't feel ripped off. I think it is a shame that the focus of what's wrong in the country keeps returning to the price of alcohol like some kind of Irish Paddy Cliche.

I do feel I am exploited as a motorist between VRT, VAT, Road Tax, NCT, Excise & VAT on petrol, toll roads and no access to alternative transport (public or private) or even alternative fuels. Even so, if I really was honest, I could probably find a job earning less closer to home and avoid having a car but the lifestyle change (being housebound a lot) is not something I'm prepared to accept.

But other than on the transport side of things and incompetant government, I don't think we are being "ripped-off" half as much as people think. A lot of the tax "rip-offs" mentioned by people, I think, are a sign of us being dragged into a mature tax paying society after years of tax-dodging and a punitive tax regime. In fact, I think a lot of the grumbling about the price of things (very often discretionary and luxury items) is just growing pains in a country that tries to come to terms with massive economic and social change in a very short space of time.

I know I'm not low paid or old or sick and maybe if I was I would see the harsher side of life here. I do see my boyfriend (here on a work permit) earning much less than me and he manages to make the system work for him at every turn by being smart with every euro he spends; he doesn't live the life a monk and has savings that are almost incredible (and its the same story with his friends). If someone with less than perfect English and no recognised qualifications is doing so well here, it cannot be all bad. He doesn't think Ireland's a rip-off; he just thinks we are careless with our money.

Rebecca

 

[fobs]

Have been reading both this thread and the other threads about ripoff and although can see valid points on BOTH sides of the argument I feel that I am shifting more towards Clubmams views than those of the "rip-off moaners".

I am married with 2 kids and although we have high costs such as mortgage,childcare,utility bills etc.. we have more positives than negatives. I would rather live in Ireland than anywhere else where there is still a strong sense of community ( at least where I live!)

The "celtic Tiger" has enabled our family to own a lovely house (though mortgaged),own 2 cars, take holidays in Ireland and abroad regularly, clothe ourselves well,eat VERY well etc...

All the people who graduated from my year in Collage are doing equally well. When I graduated you had very few choices in jobs and there was a lot of immigration but now i see more and more of my former school/collage classmates returning to Ireland for the quality of life they have here compared to other countries.
I have recently met 2 former classmates who were abroad for years and are sorry they didn't return sooner.

Look at all the economic migrants who are coming here to make a living. They wouldn't come here if it wasn't a country offering them the potential to work and raise their kids in a booming economy.

I for one love to travel the world but wouldn't consider living anywhere else!

 

[mmclo]

Isn't there two seperate discussions here


1. Public services/taxation do we get value for money etc. (bin charges, stamp duty, public spending). This is largely political, down to decisions made by politicians and civil servants i.e. tax individualisation local service charges and is somewhat mediated by the democratic process. As we all have different situations there will always be winners and loosers when looking for the common good

2. Normal commerce and trade. Here the issue is whether there is excessive profiteering or charging more than the market would normal lead to. Usually due to market distortion (dominance, lack of comeptition) and regulation.


The second is more relvant to the rip -off debate I think

 

[MissRibena]

Yes but I think the two become interwoven because a key point in the discussion of the costs of goods in the marketplace is the assertion that there are so many hidden or indirect taxes contributing to the higher price (eg petrol, wine etc).

Also you could argue that the government's spending sprees are contributing to a rise in inflation when they pay over the odds for goods and services (civil service pay, benchmarking, inflated building costs etc). For instance, I believe that their mismanaged spending in the health services (i.e. loads of money spent with not a whole lot to show for it) not only provides the tax payer with poor value for money but drives the cost of private healthcare even higher regardless of how much "competition" there is in that marketplace and the fact that private healthcare is supposed to be "optional".

Any kind of thorough discussion of your second point will necessitate some transgression into your first.

Rebecca

 

[Teabag]

Have been reading both this thread and the other threads about ripoff and although can see valid points on BOTH sides of the argument I feel that I am shifting more towards Clubmams views than those of the "rip-off moaners".

Yeah amazingly after reading Clubman's posts and posts from others, I am starting to believe that things aren't as bad as I originally thought. There are options and its up to the consumer to pursue those options.
Sure, there are rip-offs but it also true that there are ways and means of counter-acting them. Its an enlightening debate.

 

[Humpback]

Sure, there are rip-offs but it also true that there are ways and means of counter-acting them. Its an enlightening debate.

To take the discussion back to Eddie Hobbs' propositions on his programme, I think was he was trying to get across was that there are a lot of ways in which we as consumers are being excessively penalised for consuming in this country (Excise duty PLUS vat on alcohol for example) where there are no real means of counteracting them.

And by counteracting, I don't agree that abstension and denial is a form of counteracting. Therefore, telling me not to drink pints is not a valid means of counteracting the double taxation of excise duty and vat on the price of a pint.

 

[ClubMan]

And by counteracting, I don't agree that abstension and denial is a form of counteracting. Therefore, telling me not to drink pints is not a valid means of counteracting the double taxation of excise duty and vat on the price of a pint.

Why is this not a valid strategy to counteract this alleged rip-off? If you insist that it's not a valid strategy then how about home brew as a way to cut expenditure on alcohol if you feel that you are being ripped off? Or stocking up while travelling abroad (including NI)? Don't most countries charge the equivalent of excise duties and VAT on alcohol?

 

[Humpback]

Why is this not a valid strategy to counteract this alleged rip-off? If you insist that it's not a valid strategy then how about home brew as a way to cut expenditure on alcohol if you feel that you are being ripped off? Or stocking up while travelling abroad (including NI)? Don't most countries charge the equivalent of excise duties and VAT on alcohol?

If I want to enjoy something, but something is limiting my pleasure in enjoying that something (i.e. excise duty and vat on a pint), not having that pleasure at all is not the way to increase my pleasure in that something.

I don't see how I can answer your WHY? question any further. Not having something isn't going to increase my pleasure in enjoying that something.

It's a catch-all answer by people such as yourself throughout this discussion. Such as your comments of "if you don't like what's going on in Ireland, leave!!!".

However, your other solutions on the booze thing are valid, and it's such responses that are much more useful to this discussion on peoples perceptions of "ripoff Ireland". Much more valuable than much of the discussions above.

Another example. Would it not be a whole lot more useful to begin a thread on "getting the most when using your car and save on petrol costs" rather than slagging off those who may have to use a car and telling them to walk or cycle? I'll even start.

1. Buy at Tesco, or wherever is cheaper in your location.
2. Do your shopping at Tesco beforehand and get the extra discount.
3. Go to work earlier and avoid traffic.
4. Join a gym close to work and go home later in the evening, or leave earlier.
5. Use www.irishfuelprices.com
6. Car pool.
7. Walk or cycle when you're popping out for milk/egg/sugar or the Sunday paper.
8. Ensure your car/engine/tyres are in optimal condition to ensure best fuel efficiency.
9. Do you really need a big car? Would smaller car or smaller engine be more suitable?
10. If you need a big car, would the Toyota Prius suit?

See, 10 options for people to think about rather than your simplistic condescending response of walk or cycle.

 

[hotlips]

Re: Rip Offs - weekly bin tags

You should be able to put out your trash less often by reducing, re-using and recycling and thus pay much less than 6 euro per week. I for one am delighted that pay-by-weight and pay-by-bag were introduced. Paying a flat charge of 300 euro per year to Dun Laoghaire CoCo was much more of a rip-off. We pay less than half that amount now. If income tax covers waste collection, then there's no incentive for those people who are not environmentally aware to reduce. (I'm not suggesting that anyone posting here is not environmentally aware but there are many people out there who couldn't give a damn how much or what they dump as is plainly obvious from the contents spilling out the bins on my street.)

I guess income tax could have been reduced when waste charges were introduced but I doubt that would satisfy everyone either. When Europe forces Ireland to introduce pay-by-use for water, the whole debate will start again.

 

[ClubMan]

It's a catch-all answer by people such as yourself throughout this discussion. Such as your comments of "if you don't like what's going on in Ireland, leave!!!".

Did I say that? Where?

However, your other solutions on the booze thing are valid, and it's such responses that are much more useful to this discussion on peoples perceptions of "ripoff Ireland". Much more valuable than much of the discussions above.

I don't think that discussion of the fundamental issues (i.e. whether or not there is a pervasive rip-off culture in Ireland) are any less valuable than practical suggestions as to how people can avoid alleged rip-offs (whether we agree that they are such or not).

Another example. Would it not be a whole lot more useful to begin a thread on "getting the most when using your car and save on petrol costs" rather than slagging off those who may have to use a car and telling them to walk or cycle?

Who slagged off anybody and told them to do this? I simply outlined the situation in which myself and my wife find ourselves. I did not slag others off for owning cars or tell anybody that they should walk, cycle or use public transport if they don't want to.

See, 10 options for people to think about rather than your simplistic condescending response of walk or cycle.

Where did I tell anybody else to walk or cycle? I don't know what I did to merit being accused of being "simplistic and condescending" either but you might want to review while you're here.

 

[MissRibena]

Some of the taxes that get on peoples' goat such as those on refuse, alcohol and even motoring, the government would claim are part of a wider strategy to discourage certain types of activity to favour others. Like reusing/recycling rather than binning and to cut down on alcohol consumption (i.e. encourage abstinance!).

I'm a bit cynical about whether the increased charges are a policy tool or just a handy means of increasing the exchequer take because we rarely see taxes decreased on items/activites the government would like to encourage. Often there is far too much stick and not enough carrot; for example, in the countryside, there is very rarely an alternative to the car when it comes to transport but they keep increases the various tax hits on motorists. Also, I've often argued that quitting aids for nicotine addiction should be subsidised partly or wholly from the take on ciggarettes and tobacco if the government is really serious about stopping people from smoking.

Rebecca