Rip Offs

I get more disturbed very time I read a thread about Rip-Offs on AAM. The very people who I thought would have been very pro-consumer and possesing enough intelligence to see what's happening in the country are also the People who most strongly defend the current state of affairs.

Brendan, Rainyday and Clubman (all of whom I respect regardless of occasional specific areas where we disagree) invariably ride to the defense of the country and won't tolerate any suggestion by posters that there's something rotten in the State of Ireland.

Surely to goodness it's clear to the preverbial donkey with a glass eye up his ass (thanks for that image Eddie) that what people feel is a rip-off is often not caused by excessive profits for businesses but by a very badly put together set of taxes, tax incentives and other policies. A government so concerned with it's own profits and it's own economic figures that it is all but ignoring the impact of it's policies on society and on peoples day to day lives.

Rather than attack every poster to thinks the cost of living in Ireland has gotten out of sync with the quality of life wouldn't it be better if the learned people on this forum helped explain the causes of Rip-Off Ireland rather than deny that it exists at all?

Rip-Off Ireland is REAL. It is significantly more expensive to live here than in other countries, and that extra cost of living is not fully justified by a greater quality of life. THAT is Rip-Off Ireland. It manifests itself in Restaurants, Pubs, Cinemas, Department Stores, Supermarkets, etc. Which is why they attract the complaints.

I've had the good fortune to visit a lot of countries in 2005. I've also had the good fortune to discuss the state of those countries with the people who live there, and the only country so far that I would place below Ireland in terms of Quality of Life for someone with a reasonable level of income from a reasonably good job would be Malaysia.

Yes if you have no job or any intention of getting one Ireland would suddenly jump up the charts. But I suspect there aren't many such people posting on AAM which is why we get a certain bias from posters in their attitude to the country.

I'm not claiming to be able to fully assess quality of life in a brief visit, but I think the level of contentment and pride that citizens have about their country is a reasonable barometer or Quality of Life when combined with quantitative things like Tax and access to housing, prices in shops, restaurants etc.

I also think you can tell a lot about a country by looking at its houses and cars and cities and so on. I've had the good fortune to have dinner not just in restaurants but in peoples homes, and talk to them about their lives.

Ireland would rank above all of the countries I visited in terms of it's economic performance. If we're not carefull this country will become the equivalent of Hetty Green (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetty_Green). So concerned with our economic bottom line that we completely lose sight of what actually matters.

If a consumer visits another country or checks out a website and sees that some items are 100% or 500% more expensive in Ireland than in other countries then it's valid to lay a charge of Rip-Off Ireland. For most consumers they will consider the blame lies with the person providing the product or service. That's understandable. They are right that there's a rip-off but wrong about who's to blame.

Let those who think that Rip-Off Ireland is a myth show how life is so much better in Ireland that this higher cost of living is justified. To Evade the charge of Rip-Off it's not sufficient to explain higher prices, you also have to justify them.

I'm also concerned that someone with Brendan's intelligence thinks that we have to choose between Ireland of the 80's and Ireland of the 00's. That's a very shaky bit of reasoning. The choice is between Ireland of the 00's and everywhere else of the 00's.

-Rd
 
Here here. Back in the 80s when people complained we had crap roads and politicians answered that roads cost money and we had none - they had a valid point. But now we do have money and we are still getting piss poor excuses for the mess that many things are in. Is our health service better today than the 80s (not including technological advancement of course)? Is it as good as Finland, for example?

The real disappointment for me in Ireland is that we have had a booming economy for 10 years and we got SFA to show for it, except a bunch of people who made a stack of money. It is a shame our leaders hadn't the foresight to look at the best health service in the world, the best education system in the world, the best quality of life in the world etc. and aim for that when our economy started to gather pace. Whether we would have achieved it or not is a matter for debate, but at least we could have been proud of our efforts and our politicians efforts. Alas politicians have been more concerned about lining their and their business partners pockets, and pulling the wool over the eyes of Johnny Public.
 
daltonr said:
Clubman (all of whom I respect regardless of occasional specific areas where we disagree) invariably ride to the defense of the country and won't tolerate any suggestion by posters that there's something rotten in the State of Ireland.
Click to expand...
Er, can you point out precisely where I, for one, "invariably" do this and don't "tolerate" others' views please?
And who is doing the attacking here? Are you sure that you're not confusing reasonable/reasoned challenges and counter views to what you believe with attacks?
 
Not true - I won't tolerate any suggestion that that EVERYTHING is rotten in the state of Ireland.
 
Not true - I won't tolerate any suggestion that that EVERYTHING is rotten in the state of Ireland.
Click to expand...

If anyone ever made that suggestion you could have decided whether to tolerate it or not. I've never suggested EVERYTHING is rotten.

On one thread I mentioned some things I thought were good about Ireland and got into trouble for doing that because apparently it's not valid to point out something good and still have problems with the country.

-Rd
 
Definitely two sides starting to appear on this one, and a few in no man's land.

I agree with "daltonr" & "shanek". I spend more time working abroad than in Ireland these days. Many countries I'm gald to see the back of, but everythime I come home it just amazes me how we're Ripped Off!

I've refused to relocate abroad and missed many career opportunities in my company. I'd never have considered leaving Ireland in the past and relocating abroad, but I must confess that is no longer the case. They are many locations offering far better quality of life with good value for money as I have found out from the many collegues who took the opportunity and never looked back. I for one may be taking the boat in the future (by choice) unlike many of those before me.

Rip Off Ireland exists and is run by a government who are more concerned about lobby groups and vested interests than the citizens they purport to represent.

Fair play to Eddie for doing something positive about it!

His facts may not be 100% accurate, but show me a lobby group whose consultant's report is?
 
Lemurz said:
Fair play to Eddie for doing something positive about it!

His facts may not be 100% accurate, but show me a lobby group whose consultant's report is?
Click to expand...
Isn't being economical with the truth a form of rip-off regardless of what others do? Perhaps Eddie would claim that he was 200% accurate?
 
daltonR

I don't think you are reading our posts very well. I have highlighted consumer issues and rip offs over the years and will continue to do so. Rainyday has listed out the major rip-offs in Ireland. I know that in his real life he is active in trying to deal with many of these. ClubMan has helped thousands of people get better value through his contributions on AAM.

It's like the car insurance rubbish some years ago. Everyone shouted at the insurance companies ripping off their customers. And it stopped people looking at the real costs of high insurance - false and exagerrated claims and a cumbersome legal profession.

To deal with rip-offs, you have to recognize them. If everything is labelled a rip-off, then there will be no focus and no improvement. Let me give you one example from my own experience. The Irish Nationwide has caused huge damage to its customers by its lending practices. People have lost their homes and have been under huge stress which has seriously affected their quality of life. I have campaigned actively to resolve this serious problem and have had some success in counteracting it. But the biggest problem in dealing with it is the attitude that all banks are the same and are ripping off their customers. There is simply nothing to compare with the Irish Nationwide, yet our reform campaigns are greatly damaged by the dilution of focus on many very insigificant issues.

You continue to confuse high prices/bad value with rip-off. I have explained as often as I can that the high prices are due to the economic boom. For some reason, you seem much more comfortable shouting "Rip-off" every few minutes.

Brendan
 
Jaysus I dont know how we ever got our freedom from the English !

With all the infighting and moaning that we Irish are so good at, no wonder it took us 700 years.

Have to agree with DaltonR - The likes of Brendan, Rainyday and Clubman are extremely intelligent in my opinion and much better at argumentative prose than most of us - HOWEVER instead of debating whether there is or is not a rip-off culture in the Emerald Isle, could they perhaps take a few minutes to outline some of their ideas on how we as consumers could tackle this rip-off culture (on the insane notion that it actually exists). I for one would love to hear their ideas.

Tbag
 
Thanks for the compliment but I mustn't be that good at the oul' prose given that you seem to have missed my main point - I do concede that there are individual rip-offs but I do not concede that we have a pervasive rip-off culture/society/economy. Of the consumer rip-offs that I do see I reckon that many of these can be best tackled by highlighting them individually (rather than just moaning about and attributing them to some generalised and nebulous "rip-off Ireland" idea), reporting them to the relevant statutory authorities, chasing these authorities up if they don't act, educating people as to how to recognise and deal with real rip-offs and by shopping around and making informed decisions.
 
List away...the more repetition the better, surely if we are pro-consumer the readers can make up their own minds as to whether it's a rip-off or not.

My contribution...airport car parking, particularly long term Air Rianta variety, although new alternative Park Rite (?) not much better over long periods. Try to use Aircoach is a solutuion but not always feasible

Maybe somebody could define "rip off" surely it implies a price which is more than that justified by a normally functioning market
 

Sounds logical but could you give me an example product/service and show how you would apply your recommendations.
 
Well one obvious example might be financial products. I have seen blatantly false/misleading advertising on the part of financial institutions in the past which I have reported to the ASAI and/or IFSRA and action was taken to prematurely terminate the offending advertising campaigns. Well, eventually given that I had to chase these up with the relevant authorities who initially rejected the complaints as unfounded. In one case PTSB misleadingly claimed to offer the highest rate demand deposit account even though Northern Rock were offering a better rate and in another MoneyPenny Financial Services published newspaper ads seemingly purporting to be official notices on behalf of local authorities and aimed at local authority/shared ownership tenants who might want to buy out their properties. In both cases the offending avertising campaigns were halted. These were real rip-offs because they threatened to mislead the public and militate against making an informed buying decision and I'm sure that it is to the benefit of the wider public that action was taken to end the misleading ad campaigns prematurely.
 
That is commendable work on behalf of the consumer Clubman.

But how would you advise me to tackle one of my own perceived rip-offs (e.g. fixed line rental from Eircom where I have no choice but to use their service or stamp duty or car tax or doctors fees or a bottle of wine).
 
Teabag said:
But how would you advise me to tackle one of my own perceived rip-offs (e.g. fixed line rental from Eircom where I have no choice but to use their service or stamp duty or car tax or doctors fees or a bottle of wine).
Click to expand...
If the perceived rip-off's are really important to you, you are more than capable of coming up with your own ways of addressing them. As long as you sit back and wait for someone (Clubman, Govt, EH) to address them for you, they won't get sorted.
 
Teabag said:
That is commendable work on behalf of the consumer Clubman.
Click to expand...
Thanks - it was primarily on my own behalf though because the advertisements pissed me off so much that I bothered to get off my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language and do something about them. But I see you aren't satisfied with just those examples, eh?

fixed line rental from Eircom where I have no choice but to use their service
Click to expand...
Internet telephony/VoIP (e.g. Skype etc.) packages which can interface to normal land and mobile services. Some mobile packages and call usage profiles may work out more cost effective than paying for fixed line rental plus calls. Be one of the first 100,000 subscribers to [broken link removed] offer and get "free" line rental forever.

or stamp duty
Click to expand...
On what? Does stamp duty affect you day to day? If it's property then there are exemption thresholds that can be used to avoid it. If it's on shares then buy on exchanges other than the ISE with lower stamp duty rates or buy ETFs which are not subject to stamp duty. I'm not sure about unit linked/trust funds - I seem to recall that stamp duty is subsumed into the charging structure so it's still payable.

or car tax
Click to expand...
I am not a car owner so I don't really know about this one - sorry.

or doctors fees
Click to expand...
Shop around. My GP charges €40 per visit and does not charge for follow up visits, additional prescriptions etc. I have heard of GPs who charge a lot more than this and who charge for every visit, prescription, test result etc. People may say "oh - you can't shop around for a GP" but I challenge them to tell me why not?

or a bottle of wine.
Click to expand...
Shop around. There is a lot of choice to be had in terms of variety, quality and price in my experience. Buy in bulk locally or online from a reputable source. Stock up while travelling. To be honest I would consider wine to be a relatively discretionary and arguably a luxury purchase so I wouldn't consider high prices (not that they all are) in this area to be a rip-off.

I trust that these suggestions are of some assistance to you?
 
Interesting suggestions.

However, you have yet to address the root cause of Rip Off Ireland, which is high taxes.
 
Just thought I'd point out, while all of us over taxed citizens argue the pros and cons of a "rip off" Ireland, our "supposedly" elected representatives are on an (not so well deserved) extended holiday (and are probably laughing) at our expense!!!
 
umop3p!sdn said:
However, you have yet to address the root cause of Rip Off Ireland, which is high taxes.
Click to expand...
That's because I don't concede that, overall, we pay high taxes. Myself and my wife (joint/aggregated assessment) pay c. 17% of our gross income in income tax and PRSI/health levy which I certainly don't think is excessive. We pay 13.5% (?) or 21% VAT on (mostly) non essential purchases and 0% on essentials. We pay c. €152 (which I don't consider a tax) on our TV license. We pay €2.50 a go for bin tags (on which we get some tax relief) and put out a bag every three weeks to a month. We paid no stamp duty on our (new) house ten years ago and received mortgage interest relief while we had a mortgage. We have written off capital losses (eircom) against subsequent capital gains (First Active) leaving us with a very small CGT bill last year. I am maximising my pension contribution tax/PRSI relief. My wife is receiving Maternity Benefit at the moment. When I was unemployed for a few months after being made redundant a few years ago I claimed PRSI based Unemployment Benefit until I returned to work. All going well on the pregnancy front we will receive Child Benefit from September. We are both maximising our SSIA contributions thereby maximising our 25% tax credit/top up. We have written off medical expenses for tax relief over the last few years. We have made charitable donations sufficient to allow the recipients to claim back tax that we have paid. I suspect that the only way that we may be slightly atypical is in not owning a car. Where is the tax rip off there?
 
These are the 'visible' taxes we are all aware of. Trouble is, as soon as you go to spend any of your already taxed income, you'll end up paying hidden taxes, duties, charges and levies. These are the cause of Rip Off Ireland.

Pick an item and consider all the duties and taxes you'll end up paying. All the taxes etc that the business that sells you the item incurs, will be passed on to you. Just as well you don't have a car, because petrol alone has about 3 different taxes and duties - not including petrol station corporation taxes, public liability Gov levies etc, etc... It really adds up.


(Very few goods are 0% VAT, take a stroll around Musgraves)



Best of luck with the baby
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register