DrMoriarty
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Ah... ClubMan, I still say you missed your calling as an academic! 
Rip-off Republic Episode 3
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podgerodge
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ClubMan said:
IMHO you are still ignoring a perfectly valid definition for "rip-off" as I posted from Oxford and especially Cambridge earlier:
Oxford dictionary: • noun informal 1 an article that is greatly overpriced
Cambridge: "noun [C usually singular]
something that is not worth what you pay for it:
£300 for that shirt? - That's a complete rip-off."
Note the shirt example is from Cambridge, not me.
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DrMoriarty
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Eeeee-uuuuw!podgerodge said:
podgerodge
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I only used "especially cambridge" in the sense that the particular example it gave seemed to further my point! Not because I'm a snob!This is not contradictory to what Brendan and ClubMan et al have been saying.
A high-priced item is not necessarily overpriced or indeed greatly overpriced as per the Oxford definition.
I happened to hear Ian O Doherty (I believe he is a journalist with the Irish Independent/Sunday Independent, but I'm not really sure and I'm open to correction) on the Ray D'Arcy show and he was delighted with the show.
However, he mentioned that the best value restaurants in Dublin were Shanahan's on the Green and Thornton's. That they were in fact much better value than some of the mid-priced restaurants in Dublin.
High prices do not mean rip-off.
Marion
I thought yesterdays ROR episode was a bit weak and the audience didn't seem as receptive either. Eddie seems to be beating the same drum every week and fatigue is setting in. Did anyone hear a radio interview over the weekend which suggested that Eddie could affect the outcome of the next election? It wouldn't surprise me if he is offered a nomination from one of the opposition parties. If there is a change of government, does anyone seriously believe that would result in lower direct or indirect taxation? I don't. More likely the converse. He keeps hammering at our undeniably high indirect taxes and government waste, including:
Electronic voting machines
Cost overruns all over the place
Inadequate public transport system
Privatisation of toll roads to the benefit of particular individuals
Vehicle Registration Tax which is out of line with European harmonisation
Balance that imbalance against patients on trolleys, traffic mayhem and hours wasted commuting, little in the way of child support services, inadequate funding of education especially at primary level and not forgetting our vulnerable elderly - the list is long; is it any wonder Eddie is succeeding in whipping up the electorate?
My main conclusion is that with coffers that were never so full, (or maybe ever will be again), the government is behaving like a skin flint, getting themselves "made up" for camera "bites" and generally ignoring and treating with disdain the populace who elected them. It should be a walkover for the opposition to win the next election unless they change their tune. IMHO a little bit of "soul" or vision is needed and a little less accounting - especially for low and middle income workers.
To be fair to the government, costs are very high here due to minimum wage adherence (unlike some other countries), rents, energy and all the other costs associated with business; not forgetting our good friends at Eircom, ever the monopolist.
Is there a solution? I'd have to see the books (!) but I'd start by significantly increasing Motor tax on SUVs and bull barred Jeeps - more suited to prairies and twice as likely to kill as a standard motor vehicle.
Electronic voting machines
Cost overruns all over the place
Inadequate public transport system
Privatisation of toll roads to the benefit of particular individuals
Vehicle Registration Tax which is out of line with European harmonisation
Balance that imbalance against patients on trolleys, traffic mayhem and hours wasted commuting, little in the way of child support services, inadequate funding of education especially at primary level and not forgetting our vulnerable elderly - the list is long; is it any wonder Eddie is succeeding in whipping up the electorate?
My main conclusion is that with coffers that were never so full, (or maybe ever will be again), the government is behaving like a skin flint, getting themselves "made up" for camera "bites" and generally ignoring and treating with disdain the populace who elected them. It should be a walkover for the opposition to win the next election unless they change their tune. IMHO a little bit of "soul" or vision is needed and a little less accounting - especially for low and middle income workers.
To be fair to the government, costs are very high here due to minimum wage adherence (unlike some other countries), rents, energy and all the other costs associated with business; not forgetting our good friends at Eircom, ever the monopolist.
Is there a solution? I'd have to see the books (!) but I'd start by significantly increasing Motor tax on SUVs and bull barred Jeeps - more suited to prairies and twice as likely to kill as a standard motor vehicle.
ubiquitous
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The PDs took Tom Parlon on board in similarly unlikely circumstances just before the last election...
Sorry - I don't get it!?DrMoriarty said:Ah... ClubMan, I still say you missed your calling as an academic!
Look up a few other dictionaries and take the first definition (including from the one that you mention) and you'll find that the primary definition connotes some level of exploitation, swindle, theft, misinformation etc. I don't believe that high prices necessarily indicate a rip-off.podgerodge said:
podgerodge
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sigh, it's probably a letting of steam issue anyway!
tall chapy
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Bad Value = Rip-off....???
If I have enough money, I am sure that I would think that the prices charged at Shanahan's on the Green and Thornton's would be value for money and not a rip-off. But if I was on a basic minimum wage, I am also sure that the prices charged at Shanahan's on the Green and Thornton's would be a Rip off !!. So it could boil down to our view on money and the actual item only becomes a sideline to debate.
ROR is entertainment. It informs the many about what is just below the surface. Most people on this forum probably knew most of the facts on Eddie's shows.The question that really needs to be asked is what is being done to change the fact that there is a real lack of investigive journalism. Do you remember Larry Goodman being confronted out side of a church all those years ago. It took the British 'World in Action' team to bring it to the television. Here in this Banana Republic (new name for Eddie's new series....) the libel laws protect the dirty politicians and the rip-off merchants and hinder any real TV investigation. Loosen the libel laws a little...
Clubman
Nice as you are, playing Devils advocate, means critising both sides equally and this thing of having to prove one's credentials ie...'and what have you done about it' type questions and 'if you have done nothing than you cannot talk', clarification/goading what ever you call it is a load of codswallop. It is like you saying that because Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion and never convict of any gangland crimes, he was not a Gangster !!!
We are not in a free market. If we were in a free market we would not have the groceries Order.
Your line "leaves it open to others to enter, compete" . when new shops arrive they will not apply downward pressure they will set their prices to the nearest retailer, as there is enough business for both and more with the current growth rates that we have. A good example of this is the introduction of B&Q, known for its cheap prices in Britain, so I was expecting some "downward pressure", instead they seemed to join in a cosy arrangement where 'all boats' rise at the same time.
As for the argument, we are not forced to buy it !!..
Those that do buy it are in the minority !!
This really equates to being priced out of the market and leaves those that have the money to buy it. Land being a good example.
So those that have money can afford to buy something where demand is greater than supply, this can lead the majority out in the wilderness. Houses being a good example at present
Another example would be Clubman or myself, being the guy in the McDonalds advertisement, where he is about to go into the Nightclub, and has to pay for additional charges.Yes, he could walk out but then thats where all the fun is, he could wear his jacket while he is dancing, he could dance alone instead of with someone..so he is not forced to pay these charges...
Brendan
Our valuation of money is totally different Brendan.
It is true, I could walk away, but it is also excluding me from the Merrion Hotel Bar, it is setting the price so high it is excluding a certain set of customers.
The whole idea of the Rip-off merchant is to milk everyone until they cannot afford it,so while the boom lasts, 'sell dear and then sell cheap'..if that day ever comes.
It is a bit like the reverse of the current low cost airline model, sell cheap and then sell dear.
As for the government spending our taxes, accountability is what is required, even if it has to go down to the civil servents, along with transparency (No FOI fees to the public, would do for starters).
One interesting 'fact' that came out lastnight for me was that €1 in every €8 of government revenue comes from the car. That is an awful lot of money. Some of this needs to go towards building some decent public transport. A metro system would be a good starter, using the National Pension Fund or SSIA's to fund it, and giving it a guarenteed return at the end, instead of investing it in Equities, where their is an element of risk.
I think to have any balanced debate on this we need some bright person out there, to come up with an equation of what a Rip-Off is, quick stab VALUE⋠PRICE With value being an average of opinions.
I'm sure having you over a barrell will come in to it, ie:last flight out of a war zone,truck stop on a motorway, use of toilet in a building where you have to pay..St. Stephens Green SC. so need maybe greater than demand...
PS, Where is the spellchecker these days ??
If I have enough money, I am sure that I would think that the prices charged at Shanahan's on the Green and Thornton's would be value for money and not a rip-off. But if I was on a basic minimum wage, I am also sure that the prices charged at Shanahan's on the Green and Thornton's would be a Rip off !!. So it could boil down to our view on money and the actual item only becomes a sideline to debate.
ROR is entertainment. It informs the many about what is just below the surface. Most people on this forum probably knew most of the facts on Eddie's shows.The question that really needs to be asked is what is being done to change the fact that there is a real lack of investigive journalism. Do you remember Larry Goodman being confronted out side of a church all those years ago. It took the British 'World in Action' team to bring it to the television. Here in this Banana Republic (new name for Eddie's new series....
) the libel laws protect the dirty politicians and the rip-off merchants and hinder any real TV investigation. Loosen the libel laws a little...Clubman
Nice as you are, playing Devils advocate, means critising both sides equally and this thing of having to prove one's credentials ie...'and what have you done about it' type questions and 'if you have done nothing than you cannot talk', clarification/goading what ever you call it is a load of codswallop. It is like you saying that because Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion and never convict of any gangland crimes, he was not a Gangster !!!
So if they have you over a barrell, and you pay for it, it is not a rip-off,..more closer to extortion..
We are not in a free market. If we were in a free market we would not have the groceries Order.
Your line "leaves it open to others to enter, compete" . when new shops arrive they will not apply downward pressure they will set their prices to the nearest retailer, as there is enough business for both and more with the current growth rates that we have. A good example of this is the introduction of B&Q, known for its cheap prices in Britain, so I was expecting some "downward pressure", instead they seemed to join in a cosy arrangement where 'all boats' rise at the same time.
As for the argument, we are not forced to buy it !!..
Those that do buy it are in the minority !!
This really equates to being priced out of the market and leaves those that have the money to buy it. Land being a good example.
So those that have money can afford to buy something where demand is greater than supply, this can lead the majority out in the wilderness. Houses being a good example at present
Another example would be Clubman or myself, being the guy in the McDonalds advertisement, where he is about to go into the Nightclub, and has to pay for additional charges.Yes, he could walk out but then thats where all the fun is, he could wear his jacket while he is dancing, he could dance alone instead of with someone..so he is not forced to pay these charges...
Brendan
€15 is a rip-off for a pint..how far would it take to move it from a ridiculously expensive pint to a Rip-off pint.
Our valuation of money is totally different Brendan.
It is true, I could walk away, but it is also excluding me from the Merrion Hotel Bar, it is setting the price so high it is excluding a certain set of customers.
The whole idea of the Rip-off merchant is to milk everyone until they cannot afford it,so while the boom lasts, 'sell dear and then sell cheap'..if that day ever comes.
It is a bit like the reverse of the current low cost airline model, sell cheap and then sell dear.
As for the government spending our taxes, accountability is what is required, even if it has to go down to the civil servents, along with transparency (No FOI fees to the public, would do for starters).
One interesting 'fact' that came out lastnight for me was that €1 in every €8 of government revenue comes from the car. That is an awful lot of money. Some of this needs to go towards building some decent public transport. A metro system would be a good starter, using the National Pension Fund or SSIA's to fund it, and giving it a guarenteed return at the end, instead of investing it in Equities, where their is an element of risk.
I think to have any balanced debate on this we need some bright person out there, to come up with an equation of what a Rip-Off is, quick stab VALUE⋠PRICE With value being an average of opinions.
I'm sure having you over a barrell will come in to it, ie:last flight out of a war zone,truck stop on a motorway, use of toilet in a building where you have to pay..St. Stephens Green SC. so need maybe greater than demand...
PS, Where is the spellchecker these days ??
Brendan Burgess
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Tall Chappy said
So what? Being excluded from the Merrion Hotel is not a problem for me. Doheny's is much better and is just around the corner. I am also excluded from driving a Ferrari and living on Shrewsbury Road, but so what?
What brighter persons do you want than ClubMan and me? If you accept that high prices means rip-off, you will need to find a new phrase to cover those cases where people are overcharged because of misleading prices, simple theft as in taxi drivers charging more than is on the meter or pubs charging more than the published price.
I would suggest the following:
Cheap - low in price but may or may not be good value
Expensive - high in price, but may or may not be good value
Rip-off - a price involving some act of fraud or theft or deceit
Good value - A higher than average standard of product or service for the price you pay which may be cheap or expensive.
So can we agree on anything?
Ireland is generally an expensive place to live compared to our European neighbours
There is a mixture of good and bad value.
There are occasional examples of rip-offs, but there is not a rip-off culture.
Brendan
So what? Being excluded from the Merrion Hotel is not a problem for me. Doheny's is much better and is just around the corner. I am also excluded from driving a Ferrari and living on Shrewsbury Road, but so what?
What brighter persons do you want than ClubMan and me? If you accept that high prices means rip-off, you will need to find a new phrase to cover those cases where people are overcharged because of misleading prices, simple theft as in taxi drivers charging more than is on the meter or pubs charging more than the published price.
I would suggest the following:
Cheap - low in price but may or may not be good value
Expensive - high in price, but may or may not be good value
Rip-off - a price involving some act of fraud or theft or deceit
Good value - A higher than average standard of product or service for the price you pay which may be cheap or expensive.
So can we agree on anything?
Ireland is generally an expensive place to live compared to our European neighbours
There is a mixture of good and bad value.
There are occasional examples of rip-offs, but there is not a rip-off culture.
Brendan
DoctorEvil
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Brendan said:
I wonder about that sometimes - I was getting a quote from a few builders there recently and they were all coming in about the same and while talking to one it turned out that he knew my brother so he dropped his quote by 500 euro. Leads me to believe that the culture is to rip off but if you know some-one you can get a fair price.
I think a good deal of the debate here owes itself to the equation of rip-off with bad value. Perhaps it would be best if Eddies programme was called 'bad value' Ireland - because I think that that is what most people are arguing about. I would not have put fraud/theft/deceit into my definition of rip-off, so I would have been debating about a different issue if that was the definition we were using here.
To bring it back to this weeks ROR show - I think that the 700-odd million that we pay in ROAD TAX every year is bad value considering the ROADS/TRANSPORT NETWORK we get for it. We have had 10 years of boom. We should have more to show for it. Are we to go the way of the Italians who also had a long boom and spent feck all on infrastructure and are now looming in a slump because of that? A bit of forward thinking would be nice. The Finns, Spanish and Portuguese could do it.
I am not sure that LUAS was good value either. Sure it is a fine system, and it is the best mode of transport in Dublin at the moment – but we paid an awful lot for it, and if we compare what we paid for it to what other capital cities paid for a superior system (underground, lines that link up etc) then perhaps it would be fair to call it bad value.
Our motorways are taking longer to build than most other developed nations. Now we are being told that even though tax payers money has built them they will be handed over to private enterprise to milk. That to me would be bad value for tax payers money.
To bring it back to this weeks ROR show - I think that the 700-odd million that we pay in ROAD TAX every year is bad value considering the ROADS/TRANSPORT NETWORK we get for it. We have had 10 years of boom. We should have more to show for it. Are we to go the way of the Italians who also had a long boom and spent feck all on infrastructure and are now looming in a slump because of that? A bit of forward thinking would be nice. The Finns, Spanish and Portuguese could do it.
I am not sure that LUAS was good value either. Sure it is a fine system, and it is the best mode of transport in Dublin at the moment – but we paid an awful lot for it, and if we compare what we paid for it to what other capital cities paid for a superior system (underground, lines that link up etc) then perhaps it would be fair to call it bad value.
Our motorways are taking longer to build than most other developed nations. Now we are being told that even though tax payers money has built them they will be handed over to private enterprise to milk. That to me would be bad value for tax payers money.
Private businesses make cost/benefit analysis on possible projects all the time.
Its not rocket science for the professional.I`m sure Intel would have lent someone to the government for a while.
We have all done this in our own lives....
Do simply calculations of material and labour, add other sundry expenses, add something for unexpected costs
(get second back of envelope)
add cost of inflation
add a some more for costs overlooked
add another lump so wife/voter doesn`t think you`re a complete fool for getting it so wrong.
The LUAS is really a joke.
They must have had some idea of how much the benefit was worth when they decided Eur220M cost was OK.
Now we have a light rail built by us at over Eur700M, contracted out to Connex who hope to be breakeven on operating costs in 2-3 years.
Think of Dundrum Shopping Centre being built, furnished and stocked, then handed over to someone free who then couldn`t even make a profit.
This isn`t Rip-Off Ireland......its La La Land.
Its not rocket science for the professional.I`m sure Intel would have lent someone to the government for a while.
We have all done this in our own lives....
Do simply calculations of material and labour, add other sundry expenses, add something for unexpected costs
(get second back of envelope)
add cost of inflation
add a some more for costs overlooked
add another lump so wife/voter doesn`t think you`re a complete fool for getting it so wrong.
The LUAS is really a joke.
They must have had some idea of how much the benefit was worth when they decided Eur220M cost was OK.
Now we have a light rail built by us at over Eur700M, contracted out to Connex who hope to be breakeven on operating costs in 2-3 years.
Think of Dundrum Shopping Centre being built, furnished and stocked, then handed over to someone free who then couldn`t even make a profit.
This isn`t Rip-Off Ireland......its La La Land.
ubiquitous
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Er..., rumour has it that the traders in the Dundrum Shopping Centre are finding business (and presumably profitability) a lot slower than they originally expected.
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