Retired people are at a much lower risk of poverty than younger people

NoRegretsCoyote said:
A property right does not have to involve real property. DB pensions are an accrued property right. The holder has exclusive rights over how the pension can be spent once retirement age is reached. No Irish public servant has (to my knowledge) ever had their pension garnished even for gross abuse or corruption. It is a property right.
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The Garda Representative Association disagrees with you.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...igation-after-moody-sentence-gra-1341938.html

NoRegretsCoyote said:
Civil service recruitment was during that period done by way of anonymously-marked exam. As I said you have no idea what you are talking about.
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You keep mentioning the civil service, but my earlier comments and those of others clearly referred to the wider public sector.

It wasn't for nothing that there was an old joke in our county a few decades ago that in one area, the home turf of a former govt Minister, now deceased, that all the tall fellas were sent off to be Guards and all the short fellas were put to work in the Posts and Telegraphs.
 
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Peanuts20 said:
Vast (and I mean 75% +) of pensioners I know are on some version of the state/widows pension. In my family out of 7 uncles/aunts and their spouses, only 2 had a company or private pension. It may be starting to change as the "boomers" move to pension age but not for the previous generation.
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That may well be the case but it's not reflective of the population at large. It is true to say that the older the pensioner is the more likely they are to be poor. That's very striking in the statistics.

This report gives excellent details of the actual breakdowns.
It doesn't seem to allow for the cost of housing but it does talk about material deprivation which kind of covers that.
 
T McGibney said:
The Garda Representative Association disagrees with you.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...igation-after-moody-sentence-gra-1341938.html
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"When asked about public concern that Moody would retain his Garda pension, Mr O’Connor said he could understand such thinking, but any change would require legislation."

I'm not sure if they do disagree that it's a property right? And it would require a referendum not just legislation, I think.

A garda 20+ years ago had his pension stopped (some serious crime involved), a court decided the pension was deferred income already received and constitutionally protected by property rights so he got it back. It was seen an important case at the time in terms of clarifying the status of pensions in Ireland. (I'll post a link if I can find one)

Obviously that was ignored when it came to the private pension levy - actual deferred income has lower status to notional deferred income :(.
 
ashambles said:
Obviously that was ignored when it came to the private pension levy - actual deferred income has lower status to notional deferred income :(.
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That was de facto a tax.

Public sector workers paid an additional levy on their incomes as well (the "pension-related deduction") which was also de facto a tax.
 
ashambles said:
a court decided the pension was deferred income already received and constitutionally protected by property rights so he got it back.
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I worked in the Bank of Ireland for 15 years. I left to go to another financial institution. The Bank of Ireland refused to give me any pension for the 15 years I worked there, deferred or otherwise. It was a non-contributory pension. Apparently, there was a clause in my pension booklet that said, if I leave my job at any time my pension will be forfeited.

I have no idea what happened to the money that was set aside for me.
 
Laramie said:
I worked in the Bank of Ireland for 15 years. I left to go to another financial institution. The Bank of Ireland refused to give me any pension for the 15 years I worked there, deferred or otherwise. It was a non-contributory pension. Apparently, there was a clause in my pension booklet that said, if I leave my job at any time my pension will be forfeited.

I have no idea what happened to the money that was set aside for me.
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Presumably you read the pension booklet and found said clause? Was that clause was in compliance with the Pensions Act?
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
Public sector workers paid an additional levy on their incomes as well (the "pension-related deduction") which was also de facto a tax.
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It was indeed. A pay cut would have been more equitable as it would have resulted in a corresponding reduction in the pension payments to retired public servants who are, as we know, at a low risk of poverty.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
There was an equivalent levy on public service pensions (PSPR) in payment as well.

https://www.rtaireland.ie/pensions-2/public-service-pension-reduction-pspr/
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The private pension levy (~3%) has reduced ordinary private sector DC pensions until maybe around 2060 when the people affected die out - most people affected have not even begun drawing down their pension yet, whereas all people affected by PSPR would now be eligible to be back on full pensions.

They're not unconnected but not equivalent.
 
ashambles said:
They're not unconnected but not equivalent.
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I wasn't claiming they were.

I was making the link between the pension-related deduction (PRD) imposed on public service workers in employment and the public service pension reduction (PSPR) imposed on public service retirees. A poster had implied that there was no levy on public service retirees, and I was correcting this.
 
Retired people may suddenly find themselves at significant risk, if the young people start to emergrate!

... Someone has to pay the taxes, to fund the generous pensions promised to former state employees etc.
 
MrEarl said:
Someone has to pay the taxes, to fund the generous pensions promised to former state employees etc.
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And don't forget the generous state pension entitlement of non state employees who pay a minimum 10 years PRSI contributions towards the cost. The benefit is huge compared to the level of contribution. Drastic reform needed so that all workers contribute more towards this entitlement. State workers employed since 2013 have already had their pension contribution rates raised significantly and pension entitlement reduced. A married couple who make no pension provision other than paying PRSI are entitled under current rules to a joint pension from the state of €25,000 per year from aged 66.
 
Threadser said:
And don't forget the generous state pension entitlement of non state employees who pay a minimum 10 years PRSI contributions towards the cost. The benefit is huge compared to the level of contribution. Drastic reform needed so that all workers contribute more towards this entitlement. State workers employed since 2013 have already had their pension contribution rates raised significantly and pension entitlement reduced. A married couple who make no pension provision other than paying PRSI are entitled under current rules to a joint pension from the state of €25,000 per year from aged 66.
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The "drastic reform" being proposed by the unqualified, populist economic gurus in Sinn Féin is to lower the State pension age back down to 65!

I'm feeling a bit sorry for the magic money trees growing in Pearse's allotment - they must be under huge pressure to produce fruit!
 
Threadser said:
And don't forget the generous state pension entitlement of non state employees who pay a minimum 10 years PRSI contributions towards the cost. The benefit is huge compared to the level of contribution. Drastic reform needed so that all workers contribute more towards this entitlement.
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Very important point. While many of us, me included, point out how generous the pensions are for pre-95 State employees the real issue is the standard State pension. The vast majority of working people don't contribute enough in PRSI to fund the State pension they receive. Reforms are needed and the longer we wait the more extreme they will need to be, there's no way around it.
Threadser said:
State workers employed since 2013 have already had their pension contribution rates raised significantly and pension entitlement reduced.
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Post-2013 State employees have a much less attractive pension.
When that cohort retire a large proportion of them will not own their home and they will have far less generous pensions.
 
Purple said:
Very important point. While many of us, me included, point out how generous the pensions are for pre-95 State employees the real issue is the standard State pension. The vast majority of working people don't contribute enough in PRSI to fund the State pension they receive. Reforms are needed and the longer we wait the more extreme they will need to be, there's no way around it.
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And every time amount of the State pension is raised, the worse the problem and the more difficult the ultimate reforms are going to be.
 
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