Rented Pub Struggling!

Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

I am a former publican so the advice which I am going to give you is from experience- I still have the t-shirt somewhere!!

I think I get the picture of where you are at- absolutely nothing happening during the week with a bit of a stir about at the weekends. If you were to look at even closer it more likely is that Sat night is good with just ok Fri & Sun?

The 1st piece of advice which I will give you is: CLOSE THE PUB FROM MON-THUR/FRI!
There is no point in being open when there is no business there. You can run all the poker/darts/pool you like but it won't cover the cost of turning on the light. Do the maths-
20 customers having 5 pints each at €4.50 = €450 Gross takings. Taking VAT out of that & using a profit margin of 55% leaves €203.70 profit- now pay light, heat, wages out of that? By staying closed when business is dead you are SAVING money.

How much in staff wages would you save by not opening during the week?

2nd piece of advice- set up a website, advertise in local paper/radio, in your front window & in your nite club- that your premises is available to book exclusively for 21st birthday parties on Fri nights & also Thur nights during the Summer.

These are a gold mine! Offer the room hire free of charge- they can do their own food or you can arrange it for approx. €5 per head- they provide their own entertainment (DJ/Band- whatever they want) The only thing to insist on is that they must pay your security men.

If you can craic the 21st party market it is unreal. Effectively what you will have is a room filled with usually 200-300 people drinking their heads off & it hasn't cost you a penny to get them in there- balance this against what it usually costs you to get 300 people in?

In the winter months I would only open on Fri nights when I had a party booked it- other than that I would either leave it closed or open with very small staff. Even if you stayed closed for the entire week- have you ever worked your figures for just Sat night?

Example:

250 people @ €8 cover charge
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

I am a former publican so the advice which I am going to give you is from experience- I still have the t-shirt somewhere!!

I think I get the picture of where you are at- absolutely nothing happening during the week with a bit of a stir about at the weekends. If you were to look at even closer it more likely is that Sat night is good with just ok Fri & Sun?

The 1st piece of advice which I will give you is: CLOSE THE PUB FROM MON-THUR/FRI!
There is no point in being open when there is no business there. You can run all the poker/darts/pool you like but it won't cover the cost of turning on the light. Do the maths-
20 customers having 5 pints each at €4.50 = €450 Gross takings. Taking VAT out of that & using a profit margin of 55% leaves €203.70 profit- now pay light, heat, wages out of that? By staying closed when business is dead you are SAVING money.

How much in staff wages would you save by not opening during the week?

2nd piece of advice- set up a website, advertise in local paper/radio, in your front window & in your nite club- that your premises is available to book exclusively for 21st birthday parties on Fri nights & also Thur nights during the Summer.

These are a gold mine! Offer the room hire free of charge- they can do their own food or you can arrange it for approx. €5 per head- they provide their own entertainment (DJ/Band- whatever they want) The only thing to insist on is that they must pay your security men.

If you can craic the 21st party market it is unreal. Effectively what you will have is a room filled with usually 200-300 people drinking their heads off & it hasn't cost you a penny to get them in there- balance this against what it usually costs you to get 300 people in?

In the winter months I would only open on Fri nights when I had a party booked it- other than that I would either leave it closed or open with very small staff. Even if you stayed closed for the entire week- have you ever worked your figures for just Sat night?

Example:

250 people @ €8 cover charge is €2,000
Average spend in a crowd of 250 is usually €25 = €6250
Taking VAT & a margin of 55% this leaves a sales profit of €2829 plus €2000 is a total profit of €4829 for the night.

If you didn't open any other night of the week you couldn't lose any of the above profit.

If you add 1 21st party per week with 200 people spending €25 you add an additional €2263 in net profit.

Final advice
You can waste all the money & time you want arranging events in the bar but to be perfectly honest in the current environment- you haven't a hope! Concentrate on reducing you costs to as near zero as possible, while only incuring these costs when there is business there to be done.

Forget bands & expensive entertainment unless you are getting 1.5 times the cost of the entertainment in cover charges as otherwise you are a busy fool- pub packed- sweat dripping off you but the band are the ones making the big money- does that sound familar?

All the best with it & if you want to pm me feel free
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Yellow Belly said:
I am a former publican so the advice which I am going to give you is from experience- I still have the t-shirt somewhere!!

I think I get the picture of where you are at- absolutely nothing happening during the week with a bit of a stir about at the weekends. If you were to look at even closer it more likely is that Sat night is good with just ok Fri & Sun?

The 1st piece of advice which I will give you is: CLOSE THE PUB FROM MON-THUR/FRI!
There is no point in being open when there is no business there. You can run all the poker/darts/pool you like but it won't cover the cost of turning on the light. Do the maths-
20 customers having 5 pints each at €4.50 = €450 Gross takings. Taking VAT out of that & using a profit margin of 55% leaves €203.70 profit- now pay light, heat, wages out of that? By staying closed when business is dead you are SAVING money.

How much in staff wages would you save by not opening during the week?

2nd piece of advice- set up a website, advertise in local paper/radio, in your front window & in your nite club- that your premises is available to book exclusively for 21st birthday parties on Fri nights & also Thur nights during the Summer.

These are a gold mine! Offer the room hire free of charge- they can do their own food or you can arrange it for approx. €5 per head- they provide their own entertainment (DJ/Band- whatever they want) The only thing to insist on is that they must pay your security men.

If you can craic the 21st party market it is unreal. Effectively what you will have is a room filled with usually 200-300 people drinking their heads off & it hasn't cost you a penny to get them in there- balance this against what it usually costs you to get 300 people in?

In the winter months I would only open on Fri nights when I had a party booked it- other than that I would either leave it closed or open with very small staff. Even if you stayed closed for the entire week- have you ever worked your figures for just Sat night?

Example:

250 people @ €8 cover charge is €2,000
Average spend in a crowd of 250 is usually €25 = €6250
Taking VAT & a margin of 55% this leaves a sales profit of €2829 plus €2000 is a total profit of €4829 for the night.

If you didn't open any other night of the week you couldn't lose any of the above profit.

If you add 1 21st party per week with 200 people spending €25 you add an additional €2263 in net profit.

Final advice
You can waste all the money & time you want arranging events in the bar but to be perfectly honest in the current environment- you haven't a hope! Concentrate on reducing you costs to as near zero as possible, while only incuring these costs when there is business there to be done.

Forget bands & expensive entertainment unless you are getting 1.5 times the cost of the entertainment in cover charges as otherwise you are a busy fool- pub packed- sweat dripping off you but the band are the ones making the big money- does that sound familar?

All the best with it & if you want to pm me feel free
Click to expand...


No advice to offer, but the above advice seems excellent to me from someone who as they said has "bought the t Shirt". Interesting thread and the above advice seems the most helpful to me.
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Yellow Belly said:
Example:

250 people @ €8 cover charge is €2,000
Average spend in a crowd of 250 is usually €25 = €6250
Taking VAT & a margin of 55% this leaves a sales profit of €2829 plus €2000 is a total profit of €4829 for the night.

If you didn't open any other night of the week you couldn't lose any of the above profit.

If you add 1 21st party per week with 200 people spending €25 you add an additional €2263 in net profit.
Click to expand...

I am a bit confused with the above suggestion? What are the 250 people paying €8 for? I am really interested to know what gets people to pay in to a pub and appears to cost the publican nothing.

I would be interested to know from other people in the trade whether €25 is an average spend per customer in a small town, I would have thought that it was between €10-15.
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

I am a bit confused with the above suggestion? What are the 250 people paying €8 for? I am really interested to know what gets people to pay in to a pub and appears to cost the publican nothing.

I would be interested to know from other people in the trade whether €25 is an average spend per customer in a small town, I would have thought that it was between €10-15.

The €8 cover charge is for admission to his nite club on a Sat night- this is even cheap- most nite clubs are now €10+ due to the cost of extensions to 2.30am etc.

To solve your confusion- the only entry charge is for the Sat nite when he has his nite club open. As explained by the original poster it costs him approx. €1400 to operate for that one night to cover entertainment, security, staff, bar extensions etc- the cover charge is to off set these costs.

To get 250 people into your club/pub costing you nothing (or close to nothing) is by hosting 21st birthday parties. Give them the venue etc free & they can bring the crowd.

The average spend during regular hours in a pub would normally be approx. €15, however in anite club situation (vodka/red bulls etc etc) the average spend increases to approx. €25.

To be honest most people outside the bar industry have NO IDEA how difficult it is to make ends meet in a pub. Everyone wants the entertainment, the lighting & sound systems, the warm cosy heat, the nice toilets, the sport on TV etc etc etc- but not one customer would have a clue of how much that actually costs to provide in addition to the other associated costs which the publican is hit by-

Insurance- average bar approx. €6-10k per annum increasing to €30k average small town nite club & into €100k for larger nite clubs
Water- it may seem unbeleivable but water rates for the average pub would cost approx- €7-12k per annum
Disposal of glass/bottles- average cost for regular bar approx. €5k per annum
Bar extensions- for bar or nite club approx. €575 per night with legal costs etc
IMRO/PIP fees- royalties for having a TV/radio or background music approx. €3k per annum- this could cost nite clubs up to €20k per annum

The above is not a whinge on behalf of publicans as I no longer own one (thank god!!!) it is just to try to explain to the general public the unseen costs of running a bar. To be honest if you ever see a bar providing entertainment (bands/DJs/Karoke etc) free of charge, and the place is mobbed- have a decent bet that the business will close down within 18 months!! Everyone assumes that as there is a big crowd in & the drink is flying that the publican is in the money- OPTICAL ILLUSION!

If the band/DJ/Karoke is costing €500 with security €250 & no bar extension- the publican needs to sell €1650 of booze just to pay those costs alone. This does not account for staff, insurance, light/heat, mortgage etc etc etc

Owning a bar is madness- the only people who have any chance of making a decent living out of a bar is someone who inherited one with no borrowings! Best of luck to them- there is only one side of the bar to be on & thats as a customer!
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Yellow Belly thank you someone that knows the whole story with all the real costs. Everyone in the town thinks that when I charge €10 into the nightclub and they see 200+ people in there think im milking them and even when I tell them all the costs they are never convinced!!!!
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Have you got car parking spaces? I'm a member of a Motorcaravan club who have a "Tavern Trail". It's a list of Motorhome friendly pubs/restraunts around the country that offer a place to park for the night. I've used this quiet a bit, typically we stop off at a pub with a few friends, go for a dinner and pints and stay in the car park. If you have the space it's certainly worth considering, free advertisment and a lot or repeat business.
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Hi Dieselhead
Spoke to another friend in the trade last night who has closed his bar during the weekdays & now only opens on Sat nights (& Bank Holiday Sundays). He has done management accounts from Sept-Nov 2008 (which wouldn't normally be great months) & his bottom line profitability increased by 46%. This is mainly as his expenses were cut dramatically & his wage bill is now less than €300 on an average week, while he is still turning over approx. €8-10k per week from parties & one night of club.

He got his son to set up a web site & used the site to offer FREE 21st birthday parties- exclusive use of the property for their party i.e. not having to share with regulars etc- their own choice of entertainment & food (at their own expense).

He advertised the website & this party deal in his front windows while the bar is closed & also did one local ad. He said it took about 4-5 weeks to get it of the ground but he now has 19 21st's alone booked for this year up to July. He has also had leaving parties, wedding anniversaries & work parties- all because they could book the entire premises out.

You should give this idea serious consideration & try to infiltrate this market- even if it meant you had to offer complimentary champagne & drinks to the birthday boy or girl!

You sound like a pro-active guy anyway so I'm sure you will do ok- best of luck!
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Hi Dieselhead
Spoke to another friend in the trade last night who has closed his bar during the weekdays & now only opens on Sat nights (& Bank Holiday Sundays). He has done management accounts from Sept-Nov 2008 (which wouldn't normally be great months) & his bottom line profitability increased by 46%. This is mainly as his expenses were cut dramatically & his wage bill is now less than €300 on an average week, while he is still turning over approx. €8-10k per week from parties & one night of club.

He got his son to set up a web site & used the site to offer FREE 21st birthday parties- exclusive use of the property for their party i.e. not having to share with regulars etc- their own choice of entertainment & food (at their own expense).

He advertised the website & this party deal in his front windows while the bar is closed & also did one local ad. He said it took about 4-5 weeks to get it of the ground but he now has 19 21st's alone booked for this year up to July. He has also had leaving parties, wedding anniversaries & work parties- all because they could book the entire premises out.

You should give this idea serious consideration & try to infiltrate this market- even if it meant you had to offer complimentary champagne & drinks to the birthday boy or girl!

You sound like a pro-active guy anyway so I'm sure you will do ok- best of luck!
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Very little mention of the drink price. in these tough times a good cheap pint can attract business and favourable comment in my view
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

dieselhead said:
  • The pub is old and is nearly impossible to heat in the winter even though I have an open fire and 2 electric heaters but you would still need to keep your jumper on. The worst thing is all the other pubs are very warm and cosy so when people come into my place after being in one of the other pubs my place feels so cold.
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I'm not a huge pub user, but this sounds like a huge issue to me. Particularly if there are only a few people in the pub, a cold room is just not enticing.
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

I pub I visit in Cork City was always quiet but the landlord recently stuck a Wii in there and now during the week there is a steady amount of people playing Wii Sports. He recently held a Wii boxing tournament and that went well. A Wii might raise the temperature a bit as well with all that moving about. Irronicly its mostly midle aged and the older generation who keep coming to play it with the stundents hogging it until 9pm.
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

dewdrop said:
Very little mention of the drink price. in these tough times a good cheap pint can attract business and favourable comment in my view
Click to expand...

This was one of my first thoughts too.

Why not drop the price a bit for Monday-Thursday? The people who drink these nights are more likely to be regular drinkers, and a bit more price sensitive. I'm thinking particularly of the 3-4 pints a night brigade, of which every town has a few. Get them in and you have a regular and steady source of revenue which you can build further with the promotions and activities suggested by the other posters.

The heating sounds like an issue. People want to have their pint in comfort Is there a way to partition it off a bit so that the front part of the bar can be heated effectively? That way the smaller crowds during the week can have their comfort, but you still have the space for the weekend. Closing off part of the pub during the week would make the place look fuller too, and people would be more encouraged to come in.
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Yellow belly thanks a million you have been more than helpful, the only thing is that if i close from monday to friday I will miss out on the B&B aspect of my business although during these quite months its not paying enough to have someone in there. I am considering just opening fri, sat and sunday. About getting the 21st's I do have a few booked in but nowhere near 19!!! How does your friend attract so many to his pub do ya know??
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

dewdrop said:
Very little mention of the drink price. in these tough times a good cheap pint can attract business and favourable comment in my view
Click to expand...

True. That and a cosy, warm atmosphere.
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Hi dieselhead,

Sorry to hear it's difficult but hope it turns around for you.

A lot depends on the type of punters you want through the door but food during the day is a big bonus for your guys. Maybe even a local lunch delivery service, soup and sandwiches only. Or other simple foods, stew etc.

Maybe a 'drop home' service at 11.30 during the weeks, do it for a trial period?

Look at all your outgoings under a microscope (can't help with the tv one, don't know much there). Just from my own experience I looked at all mine over the last 12 months and have made considerable savings. I have also noticed it (spoke about this in another thread) but I'm in insurance and have noticed people are shopping around more, I've found this good for my business as have picked up business where others haven't been doing their jobs efficiently.

Any point in trying a student night or are there none near?

Hope it turns around for you.

Michael
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

There has been some really good advice on this thread, I am sorry to hear you are struggling as you seem to have a really good business attitude and willing to make things work.

Firstly, you need to reduce your outgoings. Get a rent reduction. Assess the market - if you fold, is anyone likely to take on the lease? Check out the property market - what would be the going rate for renting a pub with your turnover? This will give you breathing space. Also, look at the premises realistically, are there any essential repairs which should be undertaken by the landlord.

Secondly, assess your market realistically.

What exactly is your target market?
What is the area like in general? General economic outlook/etc.
How is your premises currently percieved by locals?
Is there a tourist trade?
Lunch/breakfast trade? No offence, but if your premises is a bit run down/scruffy, it will be putting some people off eating there.
Staff - this is linked back to another recommendation about getting key people into your nightclub - ie if you have a staff member who is a "leader"/trendy person locally, this can also help attract some business in.

Good luck with it.
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

Talk to your landlord re rent reduction.

It is a buyer's market and I was the landlord in a similar situation to yours and I would have done anything to hold on to my tenant.

If you went wallop where does that leave him and his asset?
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

MrMan said:
My local ran a pub lotto where entry was free, you signed your name and became a member of the pub and your name was included in the weekly draw.
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Sorry to be pedantic, but i am fairly certain that lotteries are illegal unless permission is obtained from the gardai. Might be worth noting.

Can anyone elaborate on gross and net profits in the drink and food industries?
I have seen figures between 5-10%. Would these figures include deductions for mortgages/lease?
 
Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!

dieselhead said:
Yellow belly thanks a million you have been more than helpful, the only thing is that if i close from monday to friday I will miss out on the B&B aspect of my business although during these quite months its not paying enough to have someone in there. I am considering just opening fri, sat and sunday. About getting the 21st's I do have a few booked in but nowhere near 19!!! How does your friend attract so many to his pub do ya know??
Click to expand...

Hi Dieselhead,

To get the 21st birthdays- they are targeting them through their nite club- they set up a members system with card etc offering entrance all nights for €6- this gave them dates of birthday, mobile numbers & email addresses from membership forms. It also helped that his son is approx. 21 so he would know a lot of the crowd.

He also advertised in his local rag, and more importantly in his front windows with large signs during the week when he was closed. He was saying that parties are like mushrooms- once you get a few- many people at the same party will be 21 within weeks/months & they tend to use where their friends used. He also says that he makes a big fuss of the birthday boy/girl- i.e. complimentary (sparkling wine) I mean champagne, flowers for the girls, card with 50-100 euro, etc- says he can well afford this compared to the normal costs of getting that many people into the place.

In his opinion he also feels that the fact that he offers "exclusive" use of the premises i.e. they don't have to share with regulars etc etc is very attractive to bookings- no gate crashers etc etc

A bar is now a maths exam- if the numbers are not right you have no chance. 90% of bars in the entire country are loss making from Mon-Thur put people feel like they have to open- YOU DON'T!!! Only open when there is business to be done & if you can develop this business from parties or other areas which don't cost you a fortune to stage then you will survive.
 
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