Religion in Schools

[cremeegg]

But reading your OP you seem as incensed by a catholic ethos being promulgated in church run schools as you are with discriminatory access. IMHO the (vast) majority of Irish people do not agree with you on this point and the state has no role in subverting that poular wish.

Religious belief being based on faith is inherently irrational.

How far should a republic based on the ideas of the enlightenment go in supporting religious education.

In Britain, there is at least one Jewish school who suggested recently that mothers should not drive their children to school as women shouldn't appear in public. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/28/hasidic-sect-london-mothers-stop-driving.

Do you think that the state should have no role in subverting that wish.

 

[Purple]

Yes indeed Wiki asserts this to be the case but it also states that the UK gives heavy state support to Catholic, CoE and Jewish schools and they are a fairly enlighened bunch.

The Government should forthwith ban practices that discriminate against access to schools. Who is going to mount the constitutional challenge? Not the RC schurch it seems.


But reading your OP you seem as incensed by a catholic ethos being promulgated in church run schools as you are with discriminatory access. IMHO the (vast) majority of Irish people do not agree with you on this point and the state has no role in subverting that poular wish. Before anybody asserts that the state has that right coz it pays the teachers' salaries, that is not relevant, the state merely channels the taxes of the people, the people have rights on how those taxes are spent. It would be profoundly undemocratic if the state were to use its intermediary role in funding education to insist on practices which the majority of the population are against.

I agree that the state must respect the wishes of the people but it must also respect its obligations under the international treaties it has signed up to;
"Secularism is regarded as a philosophical conviction protected by Article 9 and Article II of Protocol 1 (the right to education) of the European Convention and Article 18 of the UN International Covenant of Civil & Political Rights. Article 42.1 of the Irish Constitution obliges the State to respect the inalienable rights of parents, at this stage nobody is claiming that this only applies to religious parents."
The problem is the religion is integrated into all aspects of the curriculum in schools, particularly primary schools, as allowed in the 1998 education act. This is despite the state's constitutional obligation.

However, possibly your criticism is primarily of Ireland's catholic majority attitude even in its newly liberated guise and only in a secondary sense of its chosen institutions (church or state).

According to this survey 54% of people would choose a Catholic school but 84% think that schools should not have the right to discriminate against children when it comes to access based on their religion. There's no "vast majority" in favour of Catholic religious teaching there.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Purple, okay, not a "vast" majority. But I feel that is not the survey question relevant to your own attitude. What about the question "should the state use its influence through, for example, witholding teachers salaries' to encourage schools to abandon maintaining a religious ethos?". I feel that a "vast" majority would say No to that.

 

[Purple]

Purple, okay, not a "vast" majority. But I feel that is not the survey question relevant to your own attitude. What about the question "should the state use its influence through, for example, witholding teachers salaries' to encourage schools to abandon maintaining a religious ethos?". I feel that a "vast" majority would say No to that.

I don’t think anyone would propose such a thing.


What about the question “Should state funded schools teach religion during school hours?” and “Should state funded schools have a particular religious ethos?” and “Should there be a separation between Church and State in our State funded Schools?”.


I suspect a great number of teachers would happily stop teaching religion, despite the fact that a teacher can’t get a job without the blessing of the local priest (patron of the school). I’m sure that they would like their grievances to be dealt with without the involvement of the Archbishop’s Palace.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

What about the question “Should state funded schools teach religion during school hours?” and “Should state funded schools have a particular religious ethos?” and “Should there be a separation between Church and State in our State funded Schools?”.

Taking these in turn.
Q1 I would change to "Should the schools that your taxes are paying for teach religion during school hours?" I think the majority would be happy enough for their taxes to be used in that way.
Q2 Do you mean "should they be forced to have?" . Surely that is not a requirement and would rightly be rejected by a majority. Or do you mean "is it acceptable for...", which is a bit like Q1.
Q3 is tendentious and the knee jerk reaction of modern Irish man (and woman) would be to say "of course, there should be a separation between church and state, heck didn't we support gay marriage?".

 

[Purple]

Taking these in turn.

Q1 I would change to "Should the schools that your taxes are paying for teach religion during school hours?" I think the majority would be happy enough for their taxes to be used in that way.

Q2 Do you mean "should they be forced to have?" . Surely that is not a requirement and would rightly be rejected by a majority. Or do you mean "is it acceptable for...", which is a bit like Q1.

Q3 is tendentious and the knee jerk reaction of modern Irish man (and woman) would be to say "of course, there should be a separation between church and state, heck didn't we support gay marriage?".

You should be a politician, changing all the questions before answering them!

 

[mtk]

Political correctness gone mad imho

 

[Purple]

Political correctness gone mad imho

What, teaching religion in schools?

 

[cremeegg]

Look someone has to say it.

The Ferns report and the Murphy report both said that approximately 10% of priests in the Ferns and Dublin sexually abused children.

The Catholic Church Knowingly facilitated this abuse by transferring priests known to be abusers without informing their new parishioners or colleagues.

I fail to understand why the Catholic Church is not completely excluded from all aspects of Education.

 

[Gerry Canning]

cremeegg,
{fail to understand CC not completely excluded from all aspects of Education}

1. Lots of religious are good and competent educators.
2. They own a lot of the schools (not saying that is good)
3. Historically, they carry a lot of the (memory) of how to educate.

I would be slow to (throw) them out and (fast) to ensure their grip is lessened, given the sordid history of some!

 

[Leo]

3. Historically, they carry a lot of the (memory) of how to educate.

The ability to educate isn't something that's passed down through the generations like a master craft. Some of the issues of our education system are its failure to move on from the past and adapt to new methods.

Thankfully we've evolved from the days when education through fear of corporal punishment was the norm, and we should leave that history as history.

 

[Gerry Canning]

Leo,
Don,t disagree with you atall, but I would be wary of change without careful thought and strong replacements (not political type promises)!

 

[mathepac]

... The Ferns report and the Murphy report both said that approximately 10% of priests in the Ferns and Dublin sexually abused children...

We now have a banking inquiry report that says approximately 100% of developers, bankers, politicians and their overseers were corrupt or useless.

"I fail to understand why they are not completely excluded from all aspects of finance, planning, banking and property / land development."

 

[Purple]

We now have a banking inquiry report that says approximately 100% of developers, bankers, politicians and their overseers were corrupt or useless.

"I fail to understand why they are not completely excluded from all aspects of finance, planning, banking and property / land development."

They didn't knowingly cover up the rape of little children for generations. No organisation in the last 200 years, including the black & tans, has done more harm to this country.