Referendum on EU budget deal

Sunny said:
What sovereignty are we handing over that we haven't handed over already?
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Ireland's budgets currently (effectively) need pre-approval from the German finance ministry. This will end post Troika bailout. Should we pass this referendum the Germans will dictate our budgets for evermore.
Purple said:
As for the "surrendering of our sovereignty", sure that was done 3-10 years ago without us knowing about it;
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Well, a large dollop of sovereignty was surrendered when we stupidly joined the euro, although that's history now . . but the biggest damage was done in September 2008.
I'll vote no despite what the mutton-heads on the loony left, former terrorists or some celebrity economists say.
 
What does sovereignty mean in Ireland, only that criminals, wasters and incompetents are in control?
To paraphrase Master Oogway: Vote, don't vote. Sovereignty, don't sovereignty. You are too concerned about what was and what will be.
And what was and what will be in Ireland is more of the same, whether we label ourselves sovereign or not. Simply meaningless words.
 
At the moment I'm planning to vote Yes for the following reasons:

I think this will force the government of the day to limit what is spent based on what it takes in in taxes. I see a lot of extra taxes coming in this year and next, but before long a marginal rate of return will be hit and government spending rather than tax increases will be targetted more.
If we vote No, then IMO that's it - no second go with sweetener thrown in as the pact has already been ratified. All bets are off and we're on our own...and the markets call all of the shots.
The politicians/parties against it appear to be the usual communists.
 
shnaek said:
whether we label ourselves sovereign or not. Simply meaningless words.
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Maybe you're right; democracy is an increasingly meaningless word in the EU too. Maybe we should just lie down now and accept our fate to be enveloped by a German-Franco federal Europe.
 
michaelm said:
Maybe you're right; democracy is an increasingly meaningless word in the EU too. Maybe we should just lie down now and accept our fate to be enveloped by a German-Franco federal Europe.
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This issue is not an opportunity to hit back at the EU. That damage was done following the Universal Bank Guarantee and the Lisbon Treaty. The EU have no major concerns on whether we accept or reject this proposal.
We are long past the decision stage on a Federal Europe. All we need to consider now is access to sufficient funds to keep our finances in order.
 
michaelm said:
Maybe you're right; democracy is an increasingly meaningless word in the EU too. Maybe we should just lie down now and accept our fate to be enveloped by a German-Franco federal Europe.
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What difference does it make as long as we are sticking with our own failed system of democracy? If we aren't having a referendum that deals with our own wasteful and incompetent beaurocracy, then it matters little in whose hands our fate lies. We are mere fodder for one bunch or another. High time we learned from the Swiss and brought in strong local governments, and restricted the powers of our national govt. We need complete change. Otherwise we are just running on the hamster wheel, with an illusion of choice that gets us all riled up. As long as we keep asking the wrong questions, we will continue to get the wrong answers.
 
I agree that our system is broken. I reckon that it will be irrelevant, in practical terms, as to how the whole mess plays out, whether we vote yes or no. It seems you are saying that voting in this State is futile; I wouldn't disagree with that. I simply intend to vote No on principle. This article might give you a smile "Humans to dumb to pick right leaders" (although it is the Daily Mail )
 
What is the rate on the ESFS fund ?
If it is around 3.5% then it is in our favour to vote through this referendum and use this mechanism to get as much morney as possible through,
and pay off as much as possible of these Promissory notes (which are what , 8.4%?) and other larger loans.

On the other hand can the EU (if this is passed) dictate that Ireland have to increase for example our Corporation tax rate?

Tough call this one.
Have to wait and see the wording.
 
shnaek said:
High time we learned from the Swiss and brought in strong local governments, and restricted the powers of our national govt. We need complete change.
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After 22 years in Switzerland I can tell you that the Swiss system is designed to do one thing and one thing only - preserve the status quo. No matter how we vote the government remains exactly the same - one member from each party, who must take collective responsibility for every decision and as a result things that would quickly be sorted out in a westminster style parliament drags on for years.

In the recent past the right wing party increased it's national vote very considerably and argued for a second seat in the government at the expense of a party who had dropped considerable, but no it did not happen, we still ended up with the exact same situation as always. Then it went one better, the minister candidate proposed by the right wing party was unacceptable to the others, so what did they do? They elected another member of the right wing party, who had not even been proposed! So not only did the people not get representation in line with their voting majority, they did not even get the candidate of their choice!

Then there is the people's referendum - collect 100,000 signatures and you can have a vote on any thing. What this means is that no decision is every final, it can always be changed. Take a drive from Basel to Zurich, you're barreling down a 3 lane highway and all of a sudden it comes to dead halt and you are back into a small single line road - what happened? Well the good citizens of this little village had a change of heart and with the motor way on the outskirts of the village they held a new vote and decide against allowing the highway through region...

The westminster style of democracy has it's weaknesses but it is definitely not as bad as you suggest.
 

Nice post Brendan and compares favourably with your first post on the subject also. However, many many people are fairly hurt, burnt, fed-up, financially screwed bearing in mind that nothing has changed despite the change of government.

This referendum will be used as a peoples' back-lash. I wish this will not be the case. But, people can only take so much and I feel the Irish population has reached its elastic limit.

Fianna Fáil are dead in the water. It is only a matter of time before they go the same way as the PDs. They are not a plausable opposition party in most intelligent minds. Still TDs from all parties think they can carry on as if Ireland PLC is buoyant. The senate is no nearer disbandment despite election promises. And worse again nobody of those who caused our problems are in prison.

While I will be voting "Yes" I fear the majority will vote "No."
 
I can't help wondering if a messy default in Greece over the coming weeks won't sharpen minds when it comes to this referendum...
 
Calico said:
I can't help wondering if a messy default in Greece over the coming weeks won't sharpen minds when it comes to this referendum...
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Greece wont default. They will just keep shoving bailouts at Greece and writing more debt off. This is because the Greeks are not passive sheep.
 

This is an excellent post, if we were to offer parallels with history which are precarious at best for many reasons, but for the sake of analogy 2008 would be 1929 in the US Great Depression therefore making 2012 the year 1933 and the beginning of FDR's presidency heralding the beginning of the New Deal and vast public works and an attempt to get people back to work and give hope to a nation scarred by four years of depression, unfortunately we do not have an FDR or any attempt to give hope for the future, so I do think the government will have an major task to convince a defeated nation to endorse this treaty.
 

FDR’s new deal probably did more harm than good. The Second World War ended the depression.
Add to that the fact that Ireland has a small and very open economy, unlike the USA in the 1930’s, and injecting money into the economy will see most of that cash leave the country as we buy imported consumer goods. A consumer stimulus package for Ireland is a very bad idea for the same reasons.

Thank god we don’t have an FDR.
 
bullworth said:
Greece wont default. They will just keep shoving bailouts at Greece and writing more debt off. This is because the Greeks are not passive sheep.
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Greece won't default this year because it is a year of 40 General Elections world wide, including the US, so they won't be allowed to default. 2013 is when the defaults will kick off and all the fun will begin.
 

Incorrect to say the New Deal did more harm than good, Whether the New Deal was a success or not, depends on the definition of success. That a president, FDR, was actually doing something positive was a huge boost to the American public - they were not being left to fend for themselves,
In 1933 the year Roosevelt took office as president - there were significant improvements. Economic strength and development thrives on confidence and figures give the clear impression that the US had greater confidence in her economic ability after the Crash of 1929. For GDP - this is usually taken as key pointer in a nation's economic health - 1933 to 1939 witnessed a 60% increase; the amount of consumer products bought increased by 40% while private investment in industry increased by 5 times in just six years.
FDR was the president who included in his policies the people who had felt excluded by politics once the Depression had taken its hold. Now the excluded were the included. FDR for me was always just carrying on the policies of former New York Mayor Al Smith, a kinda of hero of mine if it be known!!​
 
There was an article written some months back stating that if the result of a referendum is 'No' then there should not be another refernedum on the same subject for a 5 year period. This is the 'legal' route anyway. And would of course make what we have experienced historically (Lisbon for example) as illegal. Unfortunately, I can't find the atricle. Does anyone have any ideas?
 
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