Racism rife as people with Irish sounding names twice as likely to be given job. ERSI

Status
Not open for further replies.
P

Pique318

Registered User
Messages
162
An article in the Irish Independent here claims that foreign workers are being discriminated against in favour of Irish workers when it comes to applying for jobs via CV.

Now, I'm no fan of racism, but neither am I a fan of scattergun accusations of racism which seems to be the norm nowadays.

As far as I can see, Irish companies are hiring Irish workers first and foreign workers second. Fair enough I say. Hire the best, and if there 2 of equal talent/experience, of which one is Irish and the other not, then the Irish person gets the shout.

I don't see this as racism, maybe the equality authority would, but I don't. I understand that people want to give jobs to their compatriots. I also know that it happens in France, Germany and Spain as well as the well publicised accounts of it in Australia for many years. Barack Obama wants to encourage US companies to take their off-shore operations back to the US. Again, I understand the reasoning behind this and agree with it...albeit hopeful that my job isn't at risk (which it may be, should the initiative take off).

When times are good, then everyone can be hired, but when times are bad, shouldn't the country look after its own first ?

Opinions ?
 
Re: Racism or not ?

I suppose the point usually is that the best person gets the job regardless of colour or origin etc.

That said, I think there might often be a case for a "native" of the particular country to be more suitable due to ability to interact with colleagues, or maybe more importantly customers. Is that a valid factor for making them the best person for the job?

I dont know the line between discrimaination & racism (if there is one) but my own guess is that racism is more active, actually hating a particular group rather than just preferring your own while not wishing ill on others or taking steps to make life harder for others.
 
Re: Racism or not ?

There are too many variables with the research method that haven't been accounted for. Yes it does seem that interviews were given to those with "Irish" names. However, the applications were made to the financial sector, accountancy jobs (I think). Have they accounted for the fact that the company would have received more than the two CVs the researchers sent in? Have they accounted for the inundation of CVs in general HR departments are receiving these days, especially for financial posts?

Yes, there was a bias, but bias isn't the same as racism. I'm prepared to accept that in some cases the "foreign" names were discounted for prejudicial reasons, but largely I would expect that you had some poor sod having to sift through hundreds of CVs, all with similar qualifications.

The thing is we don't know because there is no follow up as to why those CVs never got a call up. We've no idea how many of the other legitimate applications were refused an interview. You would need to compare all the rejections, not just those you sent out to form a substantive conclusion.

As to Irish Jobs for Irish People, well if we hold that view then we should get ready for the deluge of Irish people in UK/US/France/Germany/Australia etc getting kicked out in favour of the indigenous population. Will be great having all these unemployed people suddenly coming home and claiming the dole.

As a note, the one damning factor about this report is that the CVs were identical and not just qualifications. The foreign names were, according to the CV, Irish citizens. They were schooled in Ireland and had English as their first language.

How far are you going to take this Irish people first? They were all citizens or do we start doing gene pool analysis now to determine if they're really Irish?

The report is flawed, granted. It leaps to a conclusion without sufficient evidence and ignoring obvious variables (in my opinion), but to say Irish jobs for Irish only is just as flawed.
 
Re: Racism or not ?

I'm responsible for the hiring/firing in my job, and certainly the best person I interviewed would get the job, regardless of their nationality.

I've taken on Irish, English, Spanish, French, Polish, Lithuanian, Chinese, Nigerian, Australian, Italian, etc.

The person most suited for the position got the job, not necessarily the Irish.
 
Re: Racism or not ?

Latrade said:
As to Irish Jobs for Irish People, well if we hold that view then we should get ready for the deluge of Irish people in UK/US/France/Germany/Australia etc getting kicked out in favour of the indigenous population. Will be great having all these unemployed people suddenly coming home and claiming the dole.
Click to expand...
It's already happening. OK not so far as being kicked out, but definitely being turned down jobs in favour of the 'locals', leaving them to work at lower skilled jobs.
How many Indians/Asians are there with degrees/masters working as cabbies in Oz/US ?
 
Re: Racism or not ?

There is never a dead heat as you'll never get exactly identical candidates.

I've also heard complaints about discrimination against Irish candidates as they are perceived to more demanding and more expensive that foreign candidates.
 
Re: Racism or not ?

Pique318 said:
The way it should be !

But what about if there's a 'deat heat' between Irish/foreign candidates ?
Click to expand...

But the dead heat was only on paper. The reasonable approach would be to interview both and put their competence to the test. In this study, the dead heat meant the Irish name got called up for an interview and the equivalent foreign name didn't. In theory they weren't even given the chance to demonstrate competency.

I'm not saying our application of "equality" decisions isn't sometimes over fellow Member States, that's partly due to our legal system and in some cases the decisions of the Equality Appeals. However, I see no strong evidence that there are huge numbers of Irish people losing their jobs because individual states are only employing their "own".

My points were:

1. would you accept an influx of unemployed irish people returning and signing on if other states took the same view?

2. define what you mean by "irish" in order to give the jobs to irish people. As I said in this study the "foreign" names were actually Irish citizens.
 
Re: Racism or not ?

Latrade:

I'm not saying it's right, but it's understandable...and certainly not racist imo. Discriminatory, perhaps, in favour of the 'Irish' (by which I mean residents of Ireland, living here legally).
Would I accept an influx of returning emigrants ? I don't think that's ever likely to happen as those who emigrate will find another job (maybe at a lower position or in a different location) before giving up the fight and returning home to Ireland, where things aren't great anyway, and so there's no guarantee of them being able to secure the high-level position they may think they deserve.
AFAIK, there is already an EU law/directive declaring that staff must be found from within the EU, and only non-EU people can be hired if it has been demonstrated that a suitable candidate could not be found in the EU. A company I worked for had a huge amount of non-EU staff and when this directive came into effect, any of those staff who left had to be replaced by someone from within the EU to keep the percentages acceptable. I forget the figures but it may have been 40-50% of staff had to be EU citizens.
This, in my view, amounts to the same thing, albeit a broader version, and it's 'official'.
 
Re: Racism or not ?

Pique318 said:
Latrade:

I'm not saying it's right, but it's understandable...and certainly not racist imo. Discriminatory, perhaps, in favour of the 'Irish' (by which I mean residents of Ireland, living here legally).
Would I accept an influx of returning emigrants ? I don't think that's ever likely to happen as those who emigrate will find another job (maybe at a lower position or in a different location) before giving up the fight and returning home to Ireland, where things aren't great anyway, and so there's no guarantee of them being able to secure the high-level position they may think they deserve.
AFAIK, there is already an EU law/directive declaring that staff must be found from within the EU, and only non-EU people can be hired if it has been demonstrated that a suitable candidate could not be found in the EU. A company I worked for had a huge amount of non-EU staff and when this directive came into effect, any of those staff who left had to be replaced by someone from within the EU to keep the percentages acceptable. I forget the figures but it may have been 40-50% of staff had to be EU citizens.
This, in my view, amounts to the same thing, albeit a broader version, and it's 'official'.
Click to expand...


There's no official quota on employment and country of origin. The EU aspect is due to open borders. Non EU is always subject to work permits, which in effect is that you have to show lack of response/interest/talent from within the EU for the job.

I don't think that we can call all cases in this report "racism" i don't think the report does either, that would be the media's tag. But I'm sure some were not selected based on this. But we'll never know because like all good state sponsored reports they wait until they find the conclusion they set out to achieve and then shut the doors without delving further.

And again, you're right, it is unlikely to happen that we will get an influx, but is this not a possible consequence of you model of "irish jobs for irish people"? Would we not feel irked if our application for a dream job was turned down purely on the basis of being Irish?
 
Re: Racism or not ?

It could be that in the past every one was treated evenly and foreign workers were a novelty, the best canidate got the job,and now that company's have experience of hiring foreign (perceived) workers they have decided it does not suit them and giving them a interview would be wasting their time.
 
Re: Racism or not ?

Latrade said:
And again, you're right, it is unlikely to happen that we will get an influx, but is this not a possible consequence of you model of "irish jobs for irish people"?
Click to expand...
Yes, it's possible, I grant you. I don't agree with a view of 'give the job to the local, regardless of their talent' either FWIW,
Latrade said:
Would we not feel irked if our application for a dream job was turned down purely on the basis of being Irish?
Click to expand...
If I was in another country where there were thousands of their own citizens unemployed ? Probably not, TBH. I know people who've been in that situation and weren't bitter about it too.
 
Re: Racism or not ?

At the end of the day don't forget there are a few ways, in many cases, that employers can choose to discriminate if they so wish whilst making the selection process seem fair/transparent.

E.g. Complete fluency in English required (Foreign applicants could be deliberately tripped up at interview with obscure vocabulary etc);

Excellent telephone voice/manner required (people with 'foreign' accents may be suddenly regarded as unsuitable even if they speak perfectly clearly)
 
Re: Racism or not ?

What a complete and utter waste of time.

Four people in the ESRI/EA worked on this rubbish. Gimme strength!!

What does this so-called research tell us? A CV with an Irish sounding name is more likely to get an interview than a foreign-sounding name. So what? Is that racism? Even if it is, what can be done about it? Nothing.

The ESRI would be better spending their time doing proper work instead of this nonsense.

Oh, and by the way, the project had a budget of €50,000!!
 
Re: Racism or not ?

UptheDeise said:
I would like to know how many foreign folk work in the ESRI/EA?
Click to expand...

There is a complete list of employees' names on the ESRI website. So, maybe you could tell from their names if they are Irish or not...................but then you might be accused of being a racist!
 
Re: Racism or not ?

I'll be honest I had to let a few guys go in the last couple of months in a company I work for,all good workers but I did feel it was right to look after the Irish guys first.Might not be the PC thing to do but I was never a fan of that nonsense anyway.I know the lads I let go had planned to work here a few years save their money to build a house etc back home so that played a part in my decision.
The Aussie policy is to employ a native first if possible then so on.
From a company point of view we do want our employee's to stay with us a long time especially with all the resources and money that we put into training and development with our employee's.
Surely we have a right to keep the person who wants to stay for life with us rather than the person who will leave when he has saved enough money to build his house back in his native Country.I know this is not the case for all non Irish workers but there is alot who do think that way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top