Quantity Surveyor

[Jackie Treeh]

Hi All,

I am in the process of having plans for a single story extension completed by my architect.
However i was thinking to avoid any 'extras' being added to the work by whatever builder we hire & to ensure the project is costed correctly I was planning on using a quantity surveyor to help us on this front, so basically my questions are:
is it necessary to have a QS for an extension or should the architect be sufficient?
Can a QS work with an Architect?
How much should i expect to pay a QS in Dublin?

thanks!

 

[joejoe]

Hi All,

I am in the process of having plans for a single story extension completed by my architect.
However i was thinking to avoid any 'extras' being added to the work by whatever builder we hire & to ensure the project is costed correctly I was planning on using a quantity surveyor to help us on this front, so basically my questions are:
is it necessary to have a QS for an extension or should the architect be sufficient?
Can a QS work with an Architect?
How much should i expect to pay a QS in Dublin?

thanks!

How big is the extension?

Joejoe

 

[baldyman27]

You should be able to get a QS to do a take-off for 200 quid these days. A take off is where he literally measures the quantities from the drawings so you know how many blocks, slates, etc and the builder prices those quantities then. I'm a builder in Cork, one of the fools trying to be honest and my advice would be to get the QS to examine the quotes coming in as builders have myriad ways of pulling the wool over your eyes if you're any bit green. A QS bill of E500 could save you a few grand at least. Also, just because you get a QS to do a take off it can be very hard for him to foresee everything. If the builder hits rock as soon as he starts digging for foundations then the price is gone up significantly straight away. The only way to try to cover this is to make sure the QS includes for 'provisional' items such as rock or very soft ground etc. this covers the 'what-ifs' and gives you an idea of what the builder will charge you if these things do crop up and make sure they do include it in their quotes.

 

[CharlieR]

Alternatively you could also go to 2 or 3 builders and get them to price the job and itemise the works that they have included for and to make suitable allowances for unforseen items.

Compare the quotations and you should be able to see that they are all pricing the same works.

Your architect should also be able to compare these when they come back. This should save you some money.

 

[ludermor]

Alternatively you could also go to 2 or 3 builders and get them to price the job and itemise the works that they have included for and to make suitable allowances for unforseen items.

Compare the quotations and you should be able to see that they are all pricing the same works.

Your architect should also be able to compare these when they come back. This should save you some money.

Very very risky doing this, if you are not in used to looking at bills/quotes you will miss a lot of info. It is much better to get a QS to do a detailed bill and get everyone to price the same document. Then you can compare apples with apples.
If each builder put in different allowances for'unforeseen' items it will distort the figures and you can guarentee that if these items dont occur the builder will try to get his hands on this money in other ways.
And the architect is not qualified (in the vast majority of cases) to compare quotes

 

[CharlieR]

Ludermor,

Having worked with them and knowing the huge variations in their abilities, what makes you think a QS will get it right and what happens when you award the works on the QS take off bill and when the works start he has missed some items. A good builder will know what to price for as he will have encountered problems on previous projects that a PQS would not necessarily see.

When you ask them to itemise their works, your Architect, who should be competent to compare them should be able to give an informed answer. After all he should have written a spec for the works on his drawing.

You could also give your drawings to a builder and ask for a price to build the extension and for him to include for whatever he sees necessary including possible unforeseen problems that he may have encountered on similar projects before. Compare your prices and then award on this basis. You will then have a fixed price that you will have to pay for the project to be completed. When your Architect writes your scope of works and contract make sure that he states this and tailors the contract to state this.

As mentioned in earlier posts, a QS will only allow for provisional sums to cover unforeseen works and your prov sums may double depending on what they hit.

If you have no intentions of altering the design you have then a fixed price lump sum as mentioned above may be a good option.

 

[DELLBOY 08]

a QS will only allow for provisional sums to cover unforeseen works and your prov sums may double depending on what they hit.

If a bill of Quantities is produced it will contain the contractors rates for items such as excavating rock, filling to soft spots, excavating around or parallel to existing services etc.
If items like these occur during construction in larger quantities than what is measured in the BoQ then yes it will cost you more but on the other hand the rate in the BoQ will apply to any additional works required which will prevent you from getting screwed by the contractor.

Another advantage of producing a BoQ is its use in valuing works carried out throughout the construction stage which will aid in making accurate payments to the contractor and he cannot complain that he is being underpaid.

If this is only a small extension appointing an Architect should suffice. If its a large development I think its worth apointing a QS to produce a BoQ and issue payments during the construction stage. The last thing you would want is to overpay a contractor only to see him go into liquidation.

 

[CharlieR]

If a bill of Quantities is produced it will contain the contractors rates for items such as excavating rock, filling to soft spots, excavating around or parallel to existing services etc.
If items like these occur during construction in larger quantities than what is measured in the BoQ then yes it will cost you more but on the other hand the rate in the BoQ will apply to any additional works required which will prevent you from getting screwed by the contractor.

This is a dangerous option as you are giving the contractor the option of a re-measure of the works he has priced for. We never use this option as especially in groundworks it is a licence to print money.

We always, 99% of the time work on getting a fixed price for the works with a list of charges for additional works. If the scope changes then they get to use their list, if not then its the price they quoted.

Groundworks contractors are the best in the business at getting extra cash from you.

You could also see who else in your area has had an extension and get recommendations from them as to who they used and if they came across any unforeseen costs.

To avoid your contractor going bust with your money make sure you appoint your Architect to check his valuations for the works, hold a retention, 5%, and always pay in arrears.

 

[joker538]

We always, 99% of the time

Good man

To avoid your contractor going bust with your money make sure you appoint your Architect to check his valuations for the works, hold a retention, 5%, and always pay in arrears.

How is this going to avoid your contractor going bust? It may ensure that you have not overpaid your contractor. But again Architects are not trained in cost Quantity Surveyors are hence the benefit of using a Quantity Surveyor.

 

[bamboozle]

a guy in the trade i know recently told me that a lot of builders are pricing extensions & other jobs close to cost to ensure they get the job, then once they have the job they add on lots of extras and this is how they make their profit!

From reading the above it would see a BofQ only covers costs agreed per the plans...any other costs are not covered thus giving the contractor to charge an arm and a leg....

 

[sfag]

Home truths.
No builder will work off a QS's spec.
Not advisible to use a QS for a house build.
There is no such thing as a fixed price contract.
Do not let your architect pick your builder.
No project manager or architects will spot all the mistakes.
You will pay for those mistakes regardless of QS's specs
You will pay extra charges no matter what you do.

Fraid that is the way it is.

 

[sydthebeat]

Home truths.
No builder will work off a QS's spec.
Not advisible to use a QS for a house build.
There is no such thing as a fixed price contract.
Do not let your architect pick your builder.
No project manager or architects will spot all the mistakes.
You will pay for those mistakes regardless of QS's specs
You will pay extra charges no matter what you do.

Fraid that is the way it is.

one thing i would agree on... theres no such thing as a fixed price contract for a domestic build... there is ALWAYS variations and extras...

as for the other points...
i agree if the build is carried out in the typical irish ad hoc haphazard manner....
but definitely NOT if carried out correctly to best practises, especially a client paying for mistakes.. that doesnt happen in a properly managed build.

again, theres a huge disrespect for the complexities of house building in ireland... from planners to professionals to builders to clients....

 

[Patrick2008]

Jackie, Overall I think it will be benefical for you to employ a QS. Some people prefer to employ a Chartered QS (ASCS,MRICS) but you should be fine as long as the QS is competent etc. Depending on the level of services you could get a QS to prepare a bill of quantities or a schedule of works, contractor appointment, management on site, payments etc for 1-2% of the overall construction costs or agree a fee. All of this depends on the level of work involved. An Architect will not be as commercially aware as a good QS and a good QS will have better negotiating skills when agreeing rates etc with contractors. You may also wish to go the direct labour route and this will enable you to have more control over your costs with the aid of your QS. However, this route is dependent on the amount of time you are willing to give to the job.

 

[CharlieR]

How is this going to avoid your contractor going bust? It may ensure that you have not overpaid your contractor. But again Architects are not trained in cost Quantity Surveyors are hence the benefit of using a Quantity Surveyor.

It will stop them going bust with your money and you not having the value of the works that you have paid for.

If Architects have no training in cost, can you advise as why an Architect who is also the Contract Administrator, signs off the costs on my current scheme, currently on Phase 2 of 3, with a value c£46million, argues costs with us the main contractor for variations and instructs the PQS what to pay based on his assesments and dealings with us.

There is also always the option of a fixed price contract and there will be no variations/extras if you do not change the scope of works or the drawings.

In the current climate, you should stand a very good chance of a fixed price lump sum contract for your works and as someone else has stated builders are seeking work and in need of work. This is where it will pay dividends for your Architect to carry out site visits to ensure the works are carried out as per building regs and the drawings and details.

 

[ludermor]

Charlie honest question. How did ye get the job initially? Do you employ a QS?
I would be amazed if the architect was agreeing variations/progress claims off his own experience. He has the PQS there to advise on cost and he would act based on thier reports. The arch would not have an clue how a bill is prepared or the method of measurment. He wouldnt know how claims and variations are built up or what entitlments are allowed.
The arch is the contract administrator but he has a whole design team to advise him.
As for your comment about retention im afraid it is incorrect. You should never have paid up front for any work so you should always have value for money. In fact you should have up to 2 months work on each payment if you factor in the time taken to process an application, issue a cert and recieve payment. There is a far bigger risk to the builder with the client going bust and having 2 months 'Work in Progress'

 

[CharlieR]

Charlie honest question. How did ye get the job initially? Do you employ a QS?

No we employed a bid manager who worked with the project team who packaged up the drawings and spec for the works and sent them out to a variety of sub-contractors for pricing. Some packages to single source suppliers and some to multiple sources to compare prices.

I would be amazed if the architect was agreeing variations/progress claims off his own experience. He has the PQS there to advise on cost and he would act based on thier reports. The arch would not have an clue how a bill is prepared or the method of measurment.

We don't have bills of quants, it is a traditional contract that based on a specification of works and the drawings issued at tender stage forming the basis of the contract.

He wouldnt know how claims and variations are built up or what entitlments are allowed.

The Architect alters the drawings, he does so without consulting the PQS, we submit a variation CCF(contract change form) with cost and programme implications an agree in principal with the Architect whether it is a design change or design development.

We then submit a price to him detailing the works that are required as per his new design. He at the same time asks his PQS to price the variation as detailed on his drawing and compares our cost to his to see if he is getting value for money.

I think if you talk to an Architect you may find that they are far more astute and commercially aware than people on this thread are giving them credit for.

The arch is the contract administrator but he has a whole design team to advise him.

You are correct, he does have the design team to advise him however he is soley responsible for administering the contract and ultimately if it goes to court has to justify his decision and the basis that he made that on.

The Architect decides on whether payment is due or not for variations or alterations as he can argue whether it was a development of the design to make it work or a change to design.

As for your comment about retention im afraid it is incorrect. You should never have paid up front for any work so you should always have value for money. In fact you should have up to 2 months work on each payment if you factor in the time taken to process an application, issue a cert and recieve payment.

Your retention is taken from the amount you owe the builder in order to ensure at the end of the contract he makes good defects. I never said to pay up front for works. My coment was,

To avoid your contractor going bust with your money make sure you appoint your Architect to check his valuations(Builders valuation of work carried out) for the works, hold a retention, 5%, and always pay in arrears.

There is a far bigger risk to the builder with the client going bust and having 2 months 'Work in Progress'

The builder, if he fears this should have the money put in an escrow account in case of the client going bust.

 

[ludermor]

What type of project is it?
It is not traditional in any project that i have ever worked on. Almost every job i have worked has had the contract based on drawing and spec with a Bill of quantities remeasurable upon completion.

The Architect alters the drawings, he does so without consulting the PQS, we submit a variation CCF(contract change form) with cost and programme implications an agree in principal with the Architect whether it is a design change or design development.

Well sounds like the exact reason you should have a QS!! Are you taking the Arch word that a change is a design development! If he disagrees what do ye do?


(apologies for being able to use the quote function properly!)

 

[CharlieR]

We do have a QS now that the contract is underway as we are both the Principal and Main Contractor.

When the Architect alters the design it can be one of 2 things, Design Development or a Design Change.

Design change means that they pay for the alterations/change as they want something different to the contract drawings. This may also give a cost saving depending on the change.

If it is design development then the original design did not work as they have had to change the design to make it work, therefore design was wrong and this also has to be paid for. If it worked why is it being changed?

Regards

 

[joejoe]

If Architects have no training in cost, can you advise as why an Architect who is also the Contract Administrator, signs off the costs on my current scheme, currently on Phase 2 of 3, with a value c£46million, argues costs with us the main contractor for variations and instructs the PQS what to pay based on his assesments and dealings with us.

The PQS does not make payments, they make recommendations to the Architect. The Architect then issues a certificate based on the PQS recommendation to the client which pay the amount on the Cert.

What from of contract do you work under?

Joejoe

 

[CharlieR]

The PQS does not make payments, they make recommendations to the Architect. The Architect then issues a certificate based on the PQS recommendation to the client which pay the amount on the Cert.

What from of contract do you work under?

Joejoe

We are working under a JCT contract