Public Transport company cancels hundreds of journeys.

[T McGibney]

Is that because the driver drives the bus slowly? Should he drive it as if he were driving a car? Do car drivers have to stop to drop off and take on passengers along the route? Could that have something to do with it?

You've accidentally hit the nail on the head. Bus Eireann have labelled the 80-mile trip from Cavan to Dublin as local service bus in order to attract state subsidy. For that reason it avoids the motorway to trundle through a series of towns in Co. Meath, all of which have alternative Bus Eireann services.

And it means that commuters and others have to endure innumerate stops along the route, both in towns and villages and at random points along the road.

Equivalent-length journeys to and from Dublin are generally classed as Expressways which don't attract subsidy.

But that's all a side issue to what we're discussing here.

So now if public sector workers don't take a stand they are the bad guys too? A bit of damned if you do damned if you don't?

I haven't labelled anyone as "the bad guys". BE staff have tolerated the obvious nonsense on the 109 route for years. They have never taken any sort of stand about it. I conclude on that basis that they don't care a fiddlers about their passengers. You are free to conclude differently if the mood takes you.

There is a different attitude to public/private sector worker's when things go wrong.

There sure is. In the private sector, workers can get sacked or otherwise lose their jobs as a result of their own and their employers' respective underperformance. That doesn't happen in the public sector.

My point is that broadly speaking, there is little difference between either save, one works to maximize profit for their owner, the other works to provide a service.

Ryanair works to maximize profit for its owner. The Bus Eireann 109 service works to maximize state subsidy for Bus Eireann.

 

[TheBigShort]

You've accidentally hit the nail on the head. Bus Eireann have labelled the 80-mile trip from Cavan to Dublin as local service bus in order to attract state subsidy. For that reason it avoids the motorway to trundle through a series of towns in Co. Meath, all of which have alternative Bus Eireann services.

And it means that commuters and others have to endure innumerate stops along the route, both in towns and villages and at random points along the road.

Equivalent-length journeys to and from Dublin are generally classed as Expressways which don't attract subsidy.

But that's all a side issue to what we're discussing here.

Yes it is. But my interpretation of that is that you think the bus should drive direct from Cavan to Dublin without picking up commuters?

I haven't labelled anyone as "the bad guys". BE staff have tolerated the obvious nonsense on the 109 route for years. They have never taken any sort of stand about it. I conclude on that basis that they don't care a fiddlers about their passengers. You are free to conclude differently if the mood takes you.

Sorry, that is correct, you haven't labelled anyone as "bad guys", you just said instead

Except the BE staff didn't take a stand as they don't care a fiddlers about their passengers

which is, aside from being completely subjective, it is also so complimentary!

There sure is. In the private sector, workers can get sacked or otherwise lose their jobs as a result of their own and their employers' respective underperformance. That doesn't happen in the public sector.

Do they though? Is it really that easy to sack someone? Has anyone been sacked in Ryanair? Will anyone get sacked in Ryanair? My guess is no-one will get sacked - and I hope that is the case, including the top dog!

 

[newirishman]

What a lot of nonsense. Ryanair has cancelled what 2% of their flights? Dublin Bus lets me rot at the side of the road significantly more often than that due to either RT system not working, or buses being too full to stop, or being on strike, or whatever. Usually with no compensation whatsoever when I have no choice but to find a taxi as the alternative.

To be clear, I am not in any way endorsing how Ryanair has handled this situation. Those short term cancellations are extremely nasty.. And it is an absolute pain in the neck to have a flight cancelled, even more so if it is the actual airline's fault instead of bad weather or volcanoes. I am (unfortunately) flying a lot, also with Ryanair, and had my fair share of delays, (not as much) cancellations, security incidents, etc, over the years. It is not nice, and airport terminals are one of the most dreadful places to be stuck for any period of time when travelling.

OP writes about "Inconveniencing thousands of passengers due to a complete mismanagement of schedules and staffing".
This sentence very much sums up the daily experience of Dublin's public transport system. I am sure users of public transport across the country would find it hard to disagree with me.

The point is, with Ryanair you have a choice - use a different airline. Take the ferry. If you are living on the continent, take a train.
With public transport system, there is no comparable choice. Even worse, the public transport companies are actively fighting against such a choice being provided.

I daresay though that there will be no relevant mid-term impact to Ryanair's business or demand coming from this situation.

 

[T McGibney]

Yes it is. But my interpretation of that is that you think the bus should drive direct from Cavan to Dublin without picking up commuters?

The Donegal-Dublin 30 Expressway service which covers the same route (but is only randomly accessible to Cavan passengers subject to limited availability) picks up passengers in Cavan, Virginia and Kells only. Quite sufficient.

Sorry, that is correct, you haven't labelled anyone as "bad guys"

Thank you.

which is, aside from being completely subjective, it is also so complimentary!

It's hardly complimentary to suggest that bus company workers "don't care a fiddlers about their passengers"

Has anyone been sacked in Ryanair? Will anyone get sacked in Ryanair?

They sack people all the time.

 

[TheBigShort]

They sack people all the time.

This is sad to hear, I thought it was a great company. Now it sounds like it must be an awful place to work. Why would they be sacking people all the time? Are you sure of this?

 

[T McGibney]

This is sad to hear, I thought it was a great company. Now it sounds like it must be an awful place to work. Why would they be sacking people all the time? Are you sure of this?

I'd say its a very tough and unforgiving place to work. But it's a great company that has enriched the lives of millions of ordinary people.

 

[TheBigShort]

I'd say its a very tough and unforgiving place to work

You'd say? So you are not sure? I'm just wondering, a company that 'sacks people all the time' would pretty soon build a reputation as a bad employer in the eyes of the public. I don't get that with Ryanair, until this issue with the pilots came out that is.

Are you sure they 'sack people all the time?'

 

[T McGibney]

Are you sure they 'sack people all the time?'

Why does it matter to you?

 

[TheBigShort]

Dublin Bus lets me rot at the side of the road

At tad exaggerated there I think!

Usually with no compensation whatsoever

Compensation that airlines are forced to pay out come by way of European directives if I'm not mistaken, not out of the goodness of airline generosity. I would be all for all public transport companies being compelled to do the same.

when I have no choice but to find a taxi as the alternative

So you have an alternative? More expensive, for sure, but ditto if your flight gets cancelled and you have to get somewhere (like home for instance).

This sentence very much sums up the daily experience of Dublin's public transport system.

My experience of public transport in Dublin is broadly positive. For sure there are delays etc, but not always down to the fault of Dublin Bus. Roadworks for one, or increased passenger use. Unlike airlines, bus companies cannot always know when an extra 100 passengers will arrive for the service. Even so, carrying over 300,000 passengers a day (with no pre-bookings) is a big operation, it is roughly the same with Ryanair (with pre-bookings, no road works, other transport users using the same lane etc)

I am sure users of public transport across the country would find it hard to disagree with me.

No, I don't. I use the train service occasionally now, about ten times a year. Always on time, leaving and arriving.

The point is, with Ryanair you have a choice - use a different airline

Do you really? I mean, if I want to get from Dublin to Heathrow, the only real option I can see is Aer Lingus. There is no other choice. On the other hand, if you don't want to use a bus, you can use the train, DART, LUAS or taxi

Take the ferry.

Is that really a practical alternative? If I bring my car, yes, but if I want to go for one night on a business trip then its not really is it?

If you are living on the continent, take a train

So my choices are Ryanair, or move abroad?

With public transport system, there is no comparable choice

Bus, train, DART, LUAS, taxi - all in the same continent too!

 

[TheBigShort]

Why does it matter to you?

You made the claim that they 'sack people all the time', I'm suggesting they don't. That it is not quite that easy just to sack someone. I would expect a large organization like Ryanair to know that, and I would be very surprised if they do sack anyone on foot of this issue.

So all I'm asking is, do you know for sure that they sack people all the time, or are you just making that up?

 

[qwerty5]

Do you really? I mean, if I want to get from Dublin to Heathrow, the only real option I can see is Aer Lingus. There is no other choice. On the other hand, if you don't want to use a bus, you can use the train, DART, LUAS or taxi

Fly to a different airport and get the train. If you're flying out of Heathrow then you've no other choice. If your end destination is London then you've loads of choice.

 

[T McGibney]

You made the claim that they 'sack people all the time', I'm suggesting they don't. That it is not quite that easy just to sack someone. I would expect a large organization like Ryanair to know that, and I would be very surprised if they do sack anyone on foot of this issue.

So all I'm asking is, do you know for sure that they sack people all the time, or are you just making that up?

They have 13,000 staff so it's quite reasonable to say, without actually having checked the precise statistics, that "they sack people all the time".

I asked you why does this matter to you. You haven't answered. As far as I can see you're merely trolling.

 

[qwerty5]

They have 13,000 staff so it's quite reasonable to say, without actually having checked the precise statistics, that "they sack people all the time".

No it's not. I've worked in companies of that size and no company sacks people all the time. People move on or retire all of the time but sacking would be only a tiny number a year.
So I suppose, being pedantic, your point is true. But of no use to anybody.

 

[T McGibney]

No it's not. I've worked in companies of that size and no company sacks people all the time. People move on or retire all of the time but sacking would be only a tiny number a year.
So I suppose, being pedantic, your point is true. But of no use to anybody.

It was a throwaway comment. And it's still probably factually true, given the industrial relations culture in Ryanair. I can't fathom why its so controversial that it has upset The BS.

 

[TheBigShort]

They have 13,000 staff so it's quite reasonable to say, without actually having checked the precise statistics, that "they sack people all the time".

I asked you why does this matter to you. You haven't answered. As far as I can see you're merely trolling.

No its not reasonable to assume at all. In fact a company that operates as efficiently as Ryanair does, in general, would indicate that their employees do a good job, making the liklihood for sacking anyone very unlikley and very rare.
In any case, making an assumption is completely different to stating something as fact.

The reason it matters to me is because the subject of this topic is to compare the different attitudes that the public have in relation to private sector workers and public sector workers. Part of that attitude stems from, what I perceive to be an over-exaggerated threat of being sacked in the private sector compared to that of the public sector.

I am using the current situation in Ryanair as an example to show how being sacked in the private sector is not as easy, or as common, as some would have you believe - yourself for instance. You stated as fact that Ryanair sack people all of the time. When you were quizzed a bit on this statement of fact, it emerged that it was simply your assumption.
I'm not here to bash Ryanair, I think its a great company, does its job very well. That is why also, I would be surprised if anyone was ever sacked over this. In particular, seeing how the CEO has already accepted the buck stops with him, then if anyone goes it will be him. I don't expect him to go, I not saying he should go, I think he should do what he said he was going to do. Find out what went wrong and fix it so it doesn't happen again - end of.

 

[T McGibney]

Part of that attitude stems from, what I perceive to be an over-exaggerated threat of being sacked in the private sector compared to that of the public sector.

Have you any facts though to back up that tautological claim of over-exaggeration?

 

[TheBigShort]

It was a throwaway comment. And it's still probably factually true, given the industrial relations culture in Ryanair. I can't fathom why its so controversial that it has upset The BS

Well at least you have admitted it an assumption. But its probably not factually true. Despite the bravado of the CEO when it comes to members of trade unions etc, its unlikely that Ryanair uses such a blunt instrument as sacking very often.

Here is what I said in post #12. Apologies for not making it clear from the start.

the point I am trying to make, which is my bad for not making it clear, is that there is a tendency to admonish the public sector and all its apparent failings while pointing to the lack of accountability. This is followed with the somewhat exaggerated claims that if such failings occurred in the private sector then the axe would fall on those responsible, no questions asked. This is proffered as an effective way to foster maximum productivity and efficiency, hence its good value for consumers.
The reality is far from this. When it comes to accountability in the private sector, most managers will automatically will adopt a strategy of self-preservation pointing to system failures rather than personal accountability similar to public sector workers.
This is not a criticism, this is just an acknowledgement of the reality of working in large organizations. That when the worst hits the fan, both public and private sector worker's will react in similar vein.

But the worker's in the public service are then lambasted for the 'protective culture' etc, when in reality, private sector worker's, working in large organizations, adopt the same methods of self-preservation.

 

[newirishman]

At tad exaggerated there I think!

You think?

Compensation that airlines are forced to pay out come by way of European directives if I'm not mistaken, not out of the goodness of airline generosity. I would be all for all public transport companies being compelled to do the same.

Indeed. But it is a known factor so will be prized in accordingly. The cost of running a business. Something that Irish public transport doesn't have to worry about. No downside to providing bad service due to no comparable alternative.

So you have an alternative? More expensive, for sure, but ditto if your flight gets cancelled and you have to get somewhere (like home for instance).

Not sure if you are deliberately missing the point? A taxi is not a like-for-like alternative to a bus. Another bus line would be, or a tram, or a DART.

My experience of public transport in Dublin is broadly positive. For sure there are delays etc, but not always down to the fault of Dublin Bus. Roadworks for one, or increased passenger use. Unlike airlines, bus companies cannot always know when an extra 100 passengers will arrive for the service. Even so, carrying over 300,000 passengers a day (with no pre-bookings) is a big operation, it is roughly the same with Ryanair (with pre-bookings, no road works, other transport users using the same lane etc)

Couldn't disagree more. I can only assume you are not living in Dublin, or not a regular user. 300K passengers a day? Munich, in Germany, has a similar population (roughly 1.5 million). Their public transport systems shifts about 700 people million per year. Dublin manages about a third of that number.

You apparently have never been to a city with a well executed public transport system. This does, by the way, not mean no delays. Or buses or trains being full. It is about how such things are managed, and potentially rectified in the long-term. The way you treat your customers if something goes wrong. Service Levels. Incident management. Communications. Ability to adapt and change. Public transport in Ireland fails on all of those.

No, I don't. I use the train service occasionally now, about ten times a year. Always on time, leaving and arriving.

Try the DART on a normal day. Or use the Belfast Enterprise service. 9 out of the last 10 times (over 18 months) it was not on time. And no, 5 minutes late is not on time.

Do you really? I mean, if I want to get from Dublin to Heathrow, the only real option I can see is Aer Lingus. There is no other choice. On the other hand, if you don't want to use a bus, you can use the train, DART, LUAS or taxi

There's half a dozen airports serving London. About half a dozen airlines servicing those airports from Ireland.
Train, Dart, Luas - all public transport. It isn't just the bus. Public transport in Dublin is not good enough.

A Taxi is not a classified as "public transport".

Is that really a practical alternative? If I bring my car, yes, but if I want to go for one night on a business trip then its not really is it?
So my choices are Ryanair, or move abroad?
Bus, train, DART, LUAS, taxi - all in the same continent too!

Again, not sure if you are deliberately missing the point or trolling? 2% of all Ryanair flights. All across their network, the majority of of which is - surprise - flying on the continent.

 

[TheBigShort]

Have you any facts though to back up that tautological claim of over-exaggeration?

Its a perception. Its based on the rationale that in order to sack someone they must have done something considered of gross misconduct or worse. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, of course it does - but it doesn't happen all the time, in fact it is relatively rare in large organisations.
The point being is the perception - like the perception that you have of Ryanair, sacking people all the time, then 'its reasonable to assume', then 'its still probably factually true'. Whereas, the opposite is most probably the case. Think about it? How would they be such a successful organization if employees were fearful of their jobs all the time?

Imagine if I said, in the public sector they sack people all of the time. What is your perception of that? I'm guessing, that you would consider that to be a false statement.

 

[TheBigShort]

You apparently have never been to a city with a well executed public transport system

Try London, Paris, New York, Toronto, Zurich, Sydney, Melbourne, San Fransciso to begin with

Here is a link to the NTA public transport performance results

[broken link removed]