Public Service Attitudes.

[liaconn]

But the C&AG didn't direct the private sector to do so and set a timescale. I couldn't agree more that some private employers do not have the same set up as suggested for the ps, but then that is their choice as all their resources are through a competative market. They know the risks, these are well defined.

However, as the C&AG states, it isn't unreasonable to expect an efficient PS. It isn't unreasonable to expect these changes across the whole PS. It's been at least 10 years (stand to be corrected) and some areas are still way behind the proposals.

So you're right, it isn't far to say the whole PS needs reform, plenty have already taken that step. But then this isn't the case for all areas. It also isn't far to compare the PS to the private in this sense as the risk is the burden of the private employer/shareholders and not public spending.




Behind the scenes, there is a lot of attention being given to the McCarthy Report. Not all changes can be made immediately and not all will have an immediate pay back. But I would expect a large part of the report to be phased in over the next few years and would expect some of the more simple recommendations (merging various units) to feature in the budget or early next year.

Same thing for the taxation. Except this will need a greater degree of considerations as to how to change the tax system while having to retain and increase tax revenue given the times we're in. It may be a couple of years before we see too much on this.

As I said, I'll back the outrage if that is what happens. But look at what has happened over the last 18 months in the ending of temporary contracts, the early retirement scheme, etc. They've been relatively successful and indicates that there is a thought about how to get the cuts without sweeping decimination (as such).

This post makes lots of sense to an 'insider' like me. There are lots and lots of areas within the Public Service where efficiencies can be made, lots of overstaffed areas where flexibility is required to allow staff to be redeployed where they're needed, areas where resistance to change is leading to the maintainance of outdated practices and far too much tolerance of the minority of public servants who are lazy, dishonest or who exaggerate the pressure they're under when they could easily take on more work. I think these are the issues which need to be debated and resolved. Private Sector and Public Sector workers having 'we don't get a half day shopping leave at Christmas', 'well, we don't get a free party and a bonus', 'well we don't have flexi time, nah nah' squabbles is just muddying the waters and avoiding a real, 'big picture' (sorry!) debate.

 

[VOR]

Liaconn & Latrade, thanks for saying what many won't.

 

[Latrade]

This post makes lots of sense to an 'insider' like me. There are lots and lots of areas within the Public Service where efficiencies can be made, lots of overstaffed areas where flexibility is required to allow staff to be redeployed where they're needed, areas where resistance to change is leading to the maintainance of outdated practices and far too much tolerance of the minority of public servants who are lazy, dishonest or who exaggerate the pressure they're under when they could easily take on more work. I think these are the issues which need to be debated and resolved. Private Sector and Public Sector workers having 'we don't get a half day shopping leave at Christmas', 'well, we don't get a free party and a bonus', 'well we don't have flexi time, nah nah' squabbles is just muddying the waters and avoiding a real, 'big picture' (sorry!) debate.

Can't disagree with any of this. But it isn't being put on the table by the extremists on either side (publically at least). One side says "think of the nurses!" the other side says, "damn them all in their cushy number".

My only frustration is that as we haven't seen the government's plan, what were the protests for? A potential plan? The possibility of a plan? I'm sorry to be glib about it, but it seemed there was a lot of outrage generated within some parts of the union without anything to suggest this is what will happen. In essence they were protesting against the "myths" they put out into the media in the first place.

In combination, McCarthy, C&AG progess reports on change and the methods used to cut numbers indicate that there is a view to more sustainable changes to PS operations.

 

[Howitzer]

Back on the original topic, Public Services Attitudes.

[broken link removed]

Divilly teaches second class in Knocklyon Junior National School. She’s 25 and in her fourth year of teaching.
....
Divilly currently earns €43,042 before tax. “It’s fine, it’s not a huge amount, but it’s grand. My worry is that if we take more cuts, living in Dublin is going to be increasingly difficult. I’m really not complaining, not with the economy the way it is. Money never came into my decision to become a teacher, but I have to be able to live.”

My personal opinion is that 43K is way too high a salary to be paying a 25 year old teacher but her own opinion is there for anyone to read.

(I'd also prefer to see people entering teaching later in life but that's somewhat irrelevant. The system somewhat works against that by starting everyone at the bottom grade and taking no account of experience - even foreign or private teaching experience.)

 

[Delboy]

Back on the original topic, Public Services Attitudes.

[broken link removed]

My personal opinion is that 43K is way too high a salary to be paying a 25 year old teacher but her own opinion is there for anyone to read.

(I'd also prefer to see people entering teaching later in life but that's somewhat irrelevant.)

i thought i heard union heads/teachers saying you could be 18 years a teacher before you ever hit 50k. 43k sounds very hight for someone only in their 4th year of work as a teacher.

 

[Purple]

Back on the original topic, Public Services Attitudes.

[broken link removed]

My personal opinion is that 43K is way too high a salary to be paying a 25 year old teacher but her own opinion is there for anyone to read.

(I'd also prefer to see people entering teaching later in life but that's somewhat irrelevant. The system somewhat works against that by starting everyone at the bottom grade and taking no account of experience - even foreign or private teaching experience.)

That's about €45-€50 per hour for each hour of classroom time. If she does one hour of prep-time for each classroom hour (and I'm sure it's not much less) that's €30-€33 per hour. Not a bad rate for a 25 year old.

 

[galleyslave]

on a related but not directly relevant topic - did anyone see the teacher on frontline yesterday - the intro said he was on close to 50k, but he claimed he only got paid 950 per fortnight. How can that be correct?

Back on topic - re public sector attitudes. Theres a real lack of leadership not just at the top but in the middle management also. I worked for a while as an it contractor to a county council and i could name many areas where improvments could me made, but let me give one silly, but telling example of the lack of leadership. In the planning dept, there were numerous template docs. These were old, having been written using ibm displaywrite, a product from the days of DOS. They still insist on using displaywrite in that dept, despite it being completely obsolete. I can see no reason why the old templates can't be opened using word, which they also have. In my opinion, its to do with clinging to outmoded work practices and an unwillingness to change. Where was the IT or departmental leadership to standardise on Word? MIA of course

 

[Purple]

i thought i heard union heads/teachers saying you could be 18 years a teacher before you ever hit 50k. 43k sounds very hight for someone only in their 4th year of work as a teacher.

That's basic rates. As with so many public sector areas there's all sorts of extra payments (like for having a H-Dip).

 

[galleyslave]

That's basic rates. As with so many public sector areas there's all sorts of extra payments (like for having a H-Dip).

is that not mandatory anyhow these days?

 

[Howitzer]

How does a 25 year have the attitude that 43K isn't a huge salary - irrespecitive of how many hours are worked in the week, or how stressfull those hours are or how many days off you get?

 

[galleyslave]

spoilt celtic tiger cub howitzer

 

[Purple]

is that not mandatory anyhow these days?

I would think so.

 

[Complainer]

I did not make up the story. It did happen and eventually the Irish Cancer Society went on air to say they would provide the pain relief. I'm sure if you contacted Liam Doran or the INO they will confirm that hospices were picketed then as yesterday. The fact that I mistook a Impact official for a Siptu is easy as they all have a tendancy to look and sound alike. Not being as familiar with pickets as you obviously are what exactly is the point of them? If it is not to impede people making deliveries or stop people passing the pickets? I am genuinely curious -honest.

To be honest, given your previous posts, I have no interest in educating you about pickets or contacting other people to verify your stories.

 

[Howitzer]

on a related but not directly relevant topic - did anyone see the teacher on frontline yesterday - the intro said he was on close to 50k, but he claimed he only got paid 950 per fortnight. How can that be correct?

I saw that too and almost lost the rag.

Frequent posters may recognise my pernikity attitude with regards to getting figures right - but he said he received 940 a forthnight after tax, however 49,000/52 = 940. He gave his WEEKLY before tax figure. His forthnightly after tax figure would be in the region of 1400.

 

[Howitzer]

spoilt celtic tiger cub howitzer

But that I don't get. When I envisage celtic cubs I think of guys in banking or construction, working in bubble industries getting bubble wages. Not primary school teachers.

 

[RMCF]

I saw that too and almost lost the rag.

Frequent posters may recognise my pernikity attitude with regards to getting figures right - but he said he received 940 a forthnight after tax, however 49,000/52 = 940. He gave his WEEKLY before tax figure. His forthnightly after tax figure would be in the region of 1400.

Surely then its the responsibility of RTE and the programme makers to make sure they give totally accurate figures. We watched that programme last night and my wife, who is also a primary teacher, had a puzzled look on her face and said to me "How is he only earning €950 a fortnight take home pay? I earn more than that and I'm not on anything like €49k".

I think its all about inventing figures to make a bad situation look worse.

And on another note, I think the 3rd example in that porgramme, the woman who was a physio summed up why Ireland is in such a mess in terms of competitiveness. She earned €58,000 !!! For a physio. I know a physio in NI and he has many years experience and is nowhere near that. Nowhere. Crazy wages.

 

[johnd]

To be honest, given your previous posts, I have no interest in educating you about pickets or contacting other people to verify your stories.

Great! suits me fine

 

[becky]

Surely then its the responsibility of RTE and the programme makers to make sure they give totally accurate figures. We watched that programme last night and my wife, who is also a primary teacher, had a puzzled look on her face and said to me "How is he only earning €950 a fortnight take home pay? I earn more than that and I'm not on anything like €49k".

I think its all about inventing figures to make a bad situation look worse.

And on another note, I think the 3rd example in that porgramme, the woman who was a physio summed up why Ireland is in such a mess in terms of competitiveness. She earned €58,000 !!! For a physio. I know a physio in NI and he has many years experience and is nowhere near that. Nowhere. Crazy wages.

I agree on the take home pay - he should be in the region of €1,200 depending on his tax credits etc. I can only presume he has some AVC's, VHI etc which come out of his payslip.

€58,000 means she's a senior physio as the basic grade stops at around €53K.

 

[galleyslave]

But that I don't get. When I envisage celtic cubs I think of guys in banking or construction, working in bubble industries getting bubble wages. Not primary school teachers.

but no experience of the dole, hardship, recession etc...everything came easy, including credit

 

[csirl]

What I'm most dissappointed with regarding the proposed public sector cuts is the attitude of BOTH the Government and the Unions to what I consider to be the elephant in the room.

As I've said many times on this forum before, the Government should be laying off staff in areas where programmes have been shut down and getting rid of the swathes of politically connected people in useless quangos and the HSE.

The Government is proposing an across the board pay cut in order to protect useless workers at the expense of those who are doing a good job. This is wrong and should not happen. What's more, while the unions have opposed pay cuts, they have been strangely silent about these useless people.