Public Sector Retire early

Mickey99

Registered User
Messages
16
Hi, thats an intetesting story Retired 2017.

But it doesn't solve the issue that ten of thousands of early retirees will be signing on having never signed on in their life or attended social welfare. Not quite the early retirement they were thinking of.

How will this inflate the job seeker numbers...

How will SW cope with this additional work for no reason, employ more sw staff to solve a problem the govmnt created.

I am receiving a lot if inquiries about this issue offline and many are very disturbed by these unknown conditions.

It would suit Fine Gael and Fianna Fail (now the government) to get this sorted before the next election or lose votes to parties who will.


I have had a lot of contact from people who will not post because there are some posters on this forum who seem bent on being dismissive and or argumentative with the sole purpose of trying to destroy peoples interest and understanding of it.

There here to try and negate the argument rather than offer support.

Interest in this issue is growing tho and it wont be long before its tidal.

This issue isnt about money, its about rediculious conditions.

Keep watching...
 
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The Ghoul

Frequent Poster
Messages
335
This has become a bit silly now - the poster Early Riser is one of the best on this issue (check previous threads) and actually has provided by far the clearest explanations and information on this that I've seen anywhere! If Early Riser thinks that getting militant over this is a bad idea then he's entitled to that viewpoint. I somewhat disagree.

One of the problems I have is I don't trust employers to provide correct information or to administer the supplementary pension correctly (assuming my understanding of it is the correct one) without a fight. I base this view on the incompetence and ignorance I've come across from from payroll/HR depts in relation to things like PRSI class, tax and increments which have affected people still working.

Nobody that I spoke to, neither Class A nor Class D had heard of the supplementary pension in my workplace until I started talking about it.

I don't like the idea of signing on for JSB while being retired and not available for work.

I don't like the expression "through no fault of their own" in relation to eligibility for the supplementary pension.

With my experience of public sector workplaces, I foresee no coordination or communication between public sector employers and the dept of social welfare with employees asking their employer about supplementary pensions and being fobbed off (quite likely by a Class D person who doesn't give a crap because it doesn't affect them personally) and told to contact the dept of social welfare who won't know anything about it. Perhaps I'm jumping the gun and being overly pessimistic here.

Also, as I mentioned earlier - AVC providers invited into workplaces to give talks on pensions and conveniently forgetting to mention anything about the supplementary pension and telling Class A people how much worse their occupational pension is than a Class D - technically correct but misleading if a supplementary pension is paid.
 

shelley levine

Registered User
Messages
22
I think posters on this thread are trying to highlight that on a list of issues that warrant attention in the public sector finances, this is well down the list.

My mother in law retired in April aged 65 as per her occupational pension scheme conditions in the private sector. She won’t get the state pension until next April aged 66. She never signed in her life and is getting job seekers for the 12 months. Is it ideal? No, but those are the rules
 

Early Riser

Frequent Poster
Messages
630
I don't like the expression "through no fault of their own" in relation to eligibility for the supplementary pension.
Good morning, Mr Ghoul - and thanks for endorsing the right to free speech!

On your specific point in relation to "through no fault of their own" I think you probably are overly apprehensive. Social Welfare payments based on PRSI are administered by a separate Dept., as we all know, and qualifying criteria and administrative arrangements change from time to time (in general, not specifically for retiring public servants). This phrase covers any changes the Dept. of Social Welfare may make at any time - of which there have been several since the scheme for the Supplementary was originally introduced.

For example, a State Pension used to be payable at 65 (the Transition Pension) and Supplementary would have been expected to end after that. Now it is 66 and in a few years it will be 67. So "through no fault of their own" a retiree will not be eligible for a Welfare payment (at least this one) before 67. Supplementary will be payable to 67 at that point.

However, if a retiree didn't bother applying for a State Pension or filled out the forms incorrectly and thus didn't get it for 12 months then it would be their own fault - and they couldn't expect to remain on the Supplementary in the meantime.

Additionally (and purely speculatively) the Dept of Social Welfare could introduce new administrative procedures for drawing the State Pension at any point (eg, register electronically and sign in once a month. This is only hypothetical and not one I think likely). Whatever such changes might be, it would be up to the retiree to satisfy them - they could not claim a Supplementary as they had failed to qualify as a result of not following the new administrative procedures. On the other hand ( and totally unlikely - to impossible) if Social Welfare declared that only private sector PRSI counted towards State Pension henceforth, then a retiree who didn't qualify for a pension as a result would continue to be eligible for Supplementary as it would be "through no fault of their own".

I don't like the idea of signing on for JSB while being retired and not available for work.
Then I don't think you have to. You will, however, have to apply and if you indicate clearly that you are not looking for work then you will be refused Jobseekers. You will not qualify for a Social Welfare payment "through no fault of your own". You can then apply for Supplementary. Just to be aware though that you will not be able to sign for PRSI credits in this event also. This will not disadvantage you financially relative to a D because in the, probably unlikely, event that your subsequent State Pension at 67 turned out to be below the value of the Supplementary then you would qualify for a partial supplementary to bring you up to this level. However, a PRSI record between 60 and 66 may well give you a higher State Pension. So you could lose out in this way.

I should say that this is from my reading of the documentation and, also, some Union documents. My only direct experience of this (going straight on to Supplementary) relates to a Dept of Ed employee who retired as a D but who had substantial earlier service as an A (pre-1995) that she was able to buy back at retirement. She received an Occupational Pension based on her total service (ie, the A and D calculated separately and then added together), plus a Supplementary based on her A service, as she was not working after retirement. Receiving Jobseekers was not relevant as she retired as a D but she did have to get documentation from Social Welfare confirming she was not eligible for any payment. I have to say that Education seemed to handle all this fairly seamlessly. The relevant section of their website is the clearest on this issue that I am aware of ( Links : https://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Services/Retirement-Pensions/Teaching-Staff/Supplementary-Pensions/FAQs.html ; https://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Services/Retirement-Pensions/Teaching-Staff/Supplementary-Pensions/Information.html).

Otherwise, I am aware of some who have taken the Jobseekers and Credits route. They were with smaller employers who, as you say, seemed not to be as familiar with all the issues and some more persistence was required - but there was not denial or direct resistance, However, I would say that the employer's preference seemed to be that the Jobseeker's route be followed first - no doubt because payment of the Supplementary came from their own budget. They would, I think, much prefer still that there was no application for Supplementary at all and the person engaged in work after retirement or stayed in work. But the scheme is there and they must work it. If they really resisted (not that I am aware of same) there is the route of the Pension's Ombudsman. In reality, I suspect most people remain in work post 60 (whether A or D) but I don't have any figures for this.

QUOTE="The Ghoul, post: 1585760, member: 34949"]If Early Riser thinks that getting militant over this is a bad idea then he's entitled to that viewpoint. I somewhat disagree.[/QUOTE]

I don't think the overall scheme is for changing - nor do I think it is a bad scheme in the overall shape of things. However, I do agree that that provision of information (and administrative clarity) is very lacking generally and I think Unions should be pressing employers on this - and should do much more themselves also. This is, in my opinion, where the pressure should be.
 
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Mickey99

Registered User
Messages
16
Retired2017 states and I quote..
I don't think the overall scheme is for changing - nor do I think it is a bad scheme in the overall shape of things. However, I do agree that that provision of information (and administrative clarity) is very lacking generally
The scheme is dreadfull, you have been paying way more than a class D and for the last 10 years, almost double.

And at the end you have to sign on have to pretend to look for a job.. wow great... Then if your not dead, you may or may not get a supplementary pension and if you finally get to, soon to be 68, you eventually get the oap, that's brilliant, what a scheme.. Howd the union ever sell that to us.

Be ause no one ever told us...
 
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IanC12

New Member
Messages
3
Hi,

You are right Mickey, this is outrageous, why are we paging huge sums each month and getting these ludicrous pension conditions, it still costs the same, as u say did we not pay for it?

Its about time the unions did something about it, its coming out of the same pot anyway.
 

Mickey99

Registered User
Messages
16
I dont know was this answered before, a colleague has rental properties, another has a farm.

Does this affect his supplementary pension?
 

The Oggster

Frequent Poster
Messages
56
Hi Folks. Could someone tell me, or point me in the right direction, the best plan of action for retiring in 20 years time? I'd like to plan ahead now to retire early.

I'm a post 2004 civil servant paying full PRSI. Joined in 2006 so would have 32 years done in 20 years and would be age 58.

From what I see it might not be feasible going 8 years early. Pension would be reduced quite a bit and wouldn't receive state pension until I was 68.

Is there anything an AVC could do?
 

Conan

Frequent Poster
Messages
964
Obviously retiring 7 years early (65 under your Civil Service Pension Scheme) will reduce your accrued Benefits at that stage - 32/80ths as pension and 96/80ths as lump sum. Since you are in an “integrated scheme” (full rate PRSI) your overall benefits are reduced by the expected State Pension currently expected from age 68 in your case.
The early retirement reduction could be significant. Whilst you can invest AVC’s , I doubt you can build a sufficient fund to bridge the gap significantly. To be honest I think retiring at age 58 is very ambitious (accepting that I don’t know your financial situation). Investing AVC’s will help and as you get into your late 50’s or early 60’s at least that fund will help cushion the impact of reduced pension benefits.
 

shelley levine

Registered User
Messages
22
AVCS are very relevant for those post 04.

Say you retire at 58 but your nra is 65. Supplementary pension would be payable from nra to 68 when the state pension would be payable.

So an avc would top up lump sum at 58 to allowable rev max figure with the balance to go into an arf (assuming criteria met) for drawdowns from 58 to 65
 

Chelsea1

Registered User
Messages
11
Totally agree, I have just retd from HSE as an A1 PRSI, went to INTREO office, on JSB for 9 mths, must collect at PO every Thursday, now a slave to the state, have to 'sign on tomorrow, and will be asked what I have done to get a job, at the ripe old age of 61 and 9 mths.
I have emailed the Minister and expressed my anger but no response as yet. The HR within HSE have no documentation re A1 PRS1 retirees, its a disgrace really
 

allaround

Registered User
Messages
13
@Conan

'Whilst you can invest AVC’s , I doubt you can build a sufficient fund to bridge the gap significantly',

absolutely I think if an individual decided to go at 62/63 (post 2004 scheme) an amount close to the gap could be funded prior to supplementary kicking in?, thoughts?
 

goldfinger

New Member
Messages
2
Hi All,

Just came across this topic and am seeking clarification - apologies if this has been addressed already.
I am a public sector worker aged 55 on class A1 PRSI - my idea was to avail of cost neutral early retirement and continue working either self employed or back in the private sector.
If I do avail of CNER - does that mean I cannot claim my early retirement pension unless i am not working and am on JBS?
I was hoping that my CNER pension could work as a top up if I wanted to work a shorter working week in the private sector.
Also does that mean I cannot avail of the lump sum until I am no longer available for work?

Thanks.
 

Early Riser

Frequent Poster
Messages
630
Hi All,

Just came across this topic and am seeking clarification - apologies if this has been addressed already.
I am a public sector worker aged 55 on class A1 PRSI - my idea was to avail of cost neutral early retirement and continue working either self employed or back in the private sector.
If I do avail of CNER - does that mean I cannot claim my early retirement pension unless i am not working and am on JBS?
I was hoping that my CNER pension could work as a top up if I wanted to work a shorter working week in the private sector.
Also does that mean I cannot avail of the lump sum until I am no longer available for work?

Thanks.
Hi goldfinger,
If you are pre-2004 you can take CNER from age 50 onwards and if post 2004 from 55 onwards.You should get your actuarially reduced occupational pension and lump sum from date of retirement.
The discussion around Jobseekers is only for those who are not working post retirement and may wish to claim the Supplementary Pension from their "normal retirement age" (whether 60 or 65). As you are planning to work in some capacity after retirement this is not applicable in your situation.
There is never any requirement to either not work or to apply for Jobseekers in order to avail of the CNER pension.
 
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goldfinger

New Member
Messages
2
Hi goldfinger,
If you are pre-2004 you can take CNER from age 50 onwards and if post 2004 from 55 onwards.You should get your actuarially reduced occupational pension and lump sum from date of retirement.
The discussion around Jobseekers is only for those who are not working post retirement and may wish to claim the Supplementary Pension from their normal retirement age (whether 60 or 65). As you are planning to work in some capacity after retirement this is not applicable in your situation.
There is never any requirement to either not work or to apply for Jobseekers in order to avail of the CNER pension.
Thank You Early Riser.
 

Gordon Gekko

Frequent Poster
Messages
3,653
Does someone who avails of CNER only get the non-State Pension piece?

This is for a pre-2004 entrant.

Say I’m on €100k and at 60 I’d get €50k.

Say at 50 that’s €37.5k pro rata and then €28k actuarially reduced. Do I get €28k minus €13k State Pension, so €15k or do I get €28k?

Thanks.
 

Early Riser

Frequent Poster
Messages
630
Does someone who avails of CNER only get the non-State Pension piece?

This is for a pre-2004 entrant.

Say I’m on €100k and at 60 I’d get €50k.

Say at 50 that’s €37.5k pro rata and then €28k actuarially reduced. Do I get €28k minus €13k State Pension, so €15k or do I get €28k?

Thanks.
It's more complicated than that, Gordon. Some scenarios using your figures may illustrate.

Three scenarios all with a pensionable salary of €100k and pre-2004, Class A public service pension. Approx rounded estimates.

1. Retire at 60 with 40 years of service. Occupational pension = €37.3K. If this person is not working and not entitled to receive a Social Welfare payment they can apply for a Supplementary Pension up until state pension age. Value in this case should approx equal that of the State Pension (bringing the total to €50k).

2 Retire at 60 with 30 years service. Occupational Pension = €28k. If not working etc., the Supplementary Pension should be around €9.5K. Apply for State Pension at 67/68 and leave Supplementary.

3. Retire at 50 with 30 years service - CNER retirement. The €28k is now actuarially reduced to around €17.5k - the CNER occupational pension. If not working etc., after 60 they could also apply for the Supplementary Pension - €9.5k. (No possible eligibility for Supplementary before 60 - CNER occupational pension only).

If any of these are working after age 60 they do not get any Supplementary - they have to wait until State Pension age. They get the occupational pension element only (CNER or not).
 
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