Straight question: Do you think, in the current situation with the crisis we have with homelessness and health care, should more money be spent on increasing public sector wages?
Public Sector pay in Budget 2019
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Straight question: Do you think, in the current situation with the crisis we have with homelessness and health care, should more money be spent on increasing public sector wages?
TheBigShort
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It would, but I dont think the €2.4bn was spent on nurses alone. Perhaps you could provide a breakdown of where the wage increases were incurred and then you can point out where you think the excesses are?
To help you along, and noting your concern for the homeless crisis, do you think that the homeless crisis, and its negative effects on families, will have a detrimental effect on the well being of children? Do you think the homeless crisis may put pressure on the resources of child support agencies like Tusla?
If so, is it possible that such an agency may be recruiting people with the necessary skillsets to assist with the problems with child supports emerging from the homeless crisis?
Here is their website and the recruitment page for your information
https://www.tusla.ie/about/careers-in-tusla/
Nice try, but I have better things to do than be drawn down another mind-bending, rabbit hole that you have such a predilection for. Feel free to answer the question I posed in post #21 if you are interested in staying on topic..
TheBigShort
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Yes.
TheBigShort
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You appear to be assuming that the €2.4bn in increased public spending was on pay rises?
Have you considered that the bulk of it is on new additional recruitment?
There we have it. Thanks.
TheBigShort
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Your welcome. As pointed out to you, to resolve the homeless crisis and its adverse effects on society, additional recruitment will be required.
This will increase public sector wages.
Very easy answer that. Yes.
TheBigShort
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Check out the nonsense in the news this evening.
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/1005/1001233-rent/
25% rent increases - because apparently "its in line with market rates".
Wages on the other hand, help pay the rent.
But the madness peddled by some is that we need to keep wages low to remain competitive, and whatever you do, dont interfere with 'the market'.
I wonder if there is a correlation between increasing rents, subdued wages, and increasing homelessness?
I wonder if there is a correlation between increasing wages and being able to afford to pay rent and the mortgage?
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/1005/1001233-rent/
25% rent increases - because apparently "its in line with market rates".
Wages on the other hand, help pay the rent.
But the madness peddled by some is that we need to keep wages low to remain competitive, and whatever you do, dont interfere with 'the market'.
I wonder if there is a correlation between increasing rents, subdued wages, and increasing homelessness?
I wonder if there is a correlation between increasing wages and being able to afford to pay rent and the mortgage?
Sophrosyne
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According to the Spending Review 2018
“Non-pay related current expenditure in 2018 accounts for 57% of total expenditure having accounted for 54% in 2007. The share of total expenditure accounted for by pay and pensions has increased by 1 percentage point to 33%.”
“Non-pay related current expenditure in 2018 accounts for 57% of total expenditure having accounted for 54% in 2007. The share of total expenditure accounted for by pay and pensions has increased by 1 percentage point to 33%.”
Without going off topic too much, but there are bigger issues out there and merit consideration, such as when our friends in the EU including the king of the EU, the Luxembourgish tippler Juncker (fact + aka Merkel's and Macron's minder - probable fact) have their way after Brexit and move the Irish 12.5% corporate tax rate up to French levels then where will we be? Suddenly as the tide of FDI (or more properly ADI - American Direct Investment) will go out and our little island won't be able to pay anybody much. But we will undoubtedly ensure that sectional interests will come out on top once again, including public sector pay.
The title of the thread is misleading as the vast majority of Public Sector workers will not see their pay increase as a result of Budget 2019 , pretty lazy journalism by Dan O’Brien.
What is true is that those who have suffered under the two tier recruitment policy will see a gradual improvement in their current conditions-I don’t really see that the concept of equal pay for equal work can be sidelined now that the economy has improved.
What is true is that those who have suffered under the two tier recruitment policy will see a gradual improvement in their current conditions-I don’t really see that the concept of equal pay for equal work can be sidelined now that the economy has improved.
That's a really silly thing to say; of course it is reasonable to compare someone with an arts degree and a postgraduate qualification with someone else with a similar qualification. You then look at the hours they work (and no, I don't think teachers only work 20 hours a week), overtime, bonuses, opportunities for advancement, holidays, pensions, job security, sick leave, paid maternity leave, career breaks and other perks over and above the statutory minimum and do a wage comparison.
I'm not in the camp that says Public Servants are over paid or are laze. I am in the camp that says that the Public Sector is grossly inefficient due to structural issues and does not have a culture of efficiency, change or identification and adoption of best practice. That is the root cause of our Healthcare problems and contributes greatly to issues such as housing and homelessness. You can work your ass off in an inefficient process and you will always be inefficient. It's also really hard to change and is ultimately a failure of management (with the Public sector Unions a close second).
You obviously don't remember benchmarking. Average pay rises of nearly 9% based on data that was never published or shared. We were simply told private sector people were paid more. So its not only Dan O'Brien who throws out numbers. Difference is when he does it, doesn't cost the taxpayer billions of euro.
Benchmarking was only going to be paid following change and modernisation of public services. Was going to cost about €1 billion annually. That was in the early 2000's. The benchmarking payments were made without any significant change. The cost was over €2 billion a year. The only time the unions came to the table and agreed to some changes and modernisation was when the economy fell off a cliff and they had to try and protect the money that they should never have been paid in the first place. An example is the standardisation of the school year. That was part of benchmarking and teachers were paid an increase on the back of this being introduced. 10 years later, it still hadn't been introduced.
TheBigShort
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Just a few obs;
The DOB article tries to highlight an apparent inequality of some 40% between private and public sector wages as a means for government to reign in wage increases in the public sector. I think it has been generally accepted that under detailed analysis that gap would be significantly lower.
Add to that is, what appears to me, an incessant compulsion that wages should always be suppressed as much as possible.
DOB gives no consideration to the notion that private sector workers actually need to start seeing increases in their wages, particularly low and medium income workers.
Looking at some data, the economy is growing again since about 2014. House prices, rents, energy all increasing. The Dept of Business and Jobs issued 1,500 employment permits this year for non-EU workers at the behest of the hotel & restaurant lobbyists. Apparently, little old Ireland, with its second highest minimum wage, cannot source enough trainee chefs throughout the whole of EU, despite the high youth unemployment rates of Spain, Italy, Greece etc.
The truth is, there is no shortage of workers willing to be chefs, just a shortage of workers prepared to work as chefs for low wages, particularly in an economy that has a shortage of suitable accommodation.
Here is Dan O Brien 4 months ago, again similar in theme relating to public sector wages, but this time he also references private sector wages.
https://www.independent.ie/business...ng-echoes-of-the-economic-crash-36993482.html
"First, a point about wage developments in peer countries. In recent years wage growth has been lower than economists would expect in many economies. Despite falling unemployment almost everywhere in the developed world and a tightening of labour markets, pay inflation has not taken off....The clearest and most obvious advantage of stronger wage growth is that it makes people better off....The good news is that the available evidence points to an economy that remains lean and is not uncompetitive."
I think Dan is saying is that there is scope for private sector workers to receive wage increases. Unfortunately, he spends his energy with redundant divisive public/private sector rhetoric.
The DOB article tries to highlight an apparent inequality of some 40% between private and public sector wages as a means for government to reign in wage increases in the public sector. I think it has been generally accepted that under detailed analysis that gap would be significantly lower.
Add to that is, what appears to me, an incessant compulsion that wages should always be suppressed as much as possible.
DOB gives no consideration to the notion that private sector workers actually need to start seeing increases in their wages, particularly low and medium income workers.
Looking at some data, the economy is growing again since about 2014. House prices, rents, energy all increasing. The Dept of Business and Jobs issued 1,500 employment permits this year for non-EU workers at the behest of the hotel & restaurant lobbyists. Apparently, little old Ireland, with its second highest minimum wage, cannot source enough trainee chefs throughout the whole of EU, despite the high youth unemployment rates of Spain, Italy, Greece etc.
The truth is, there is no shortage of workers willing to be chefs, just a shortage of workers prepared to work as chefs for low wages, particularly in an economy that has a shortage of suitable accommodation.
Here is Dan O Brien 4 months ago, again similar in theme relating to public sector wages, but this time he also references private sector wages.
https://www.independent.ie/business...ng-echoes-of-the-economic-crash-36993482.html
"First, a point about wage developments in peer countries. In recent years wage growth has been lower than economists would expect in many economies. Despite falling unemployment almost everywhere in the developed world and a tightening of labour markets, pay inflation has not taken off....The clearest and most obvious advantage of stronger wage growth is that it makes people better off....The good news is that the available evidence points to an economy that remains lean and is not uncompetitive."
I think Dan is saying is that there is scope for private sector workers to receive wage increases. Unfortunately, he spends his energy with redundant divisive public/private sector rhetoric.
Well then, maybe you'd like to tell me who you're comparing like with like. Politicians and some of the media love publishing articles like public servants earning 40% more than private sector without giving detail and proper comparison. No, my observation is far from silly, it's actually true but there are some who will never even contemplate such a thing, including yourself. Engineer in private sector v engineer in public sector? Teacher v whoever you would compare with? Office staff in private v public? Garda v who? Nurse v who? Which profession in the jobs i've mentioned do one side earn 40% more than the other? I'm certain there's plenty in the private sector earning 40% and an awful lot more than people in the public sector and fair play to them, but that's not worth mentioning in the media .You also make a sweeping statement that the PS is grossly inefficient? Care to tell us is it in nursing, teaching, etc? A bit off fact and proper data to back up your statements please and not something quoted from a TD/Senator. Like any organisation, be it private or state, there will always be something lacking but sweeping statements are very easy to speak and write about.
Generally speaking lower grade employees in the public sector are overpaid relative to their counterparts in the private sector. Higher skilled/ higher paid employees are paid the same or less but enjoy a much better pension, longer holidays, a shorter working week, better T’s and C’s and generally have a lower stress life.
Teaching and Nursing are somewhat unique but not so much so that they cannot be compared to other jobs. It is hard to put a price on what teaching holidays are worth but given that they work hard for 35-40 weeks a year (they have exams to correct and classes to prepare over the holidays) how much more should someone with similar levels of skill and qualification get paid who get 4-6 weeks holidays a year?
I think you need to relax, be far less defensive, and actually read what I wrote. I simply offered my opinion. That opinion is based on y interaction with the State over the last 25 years including health services, government departments and government bodies at a personal level and as part of workshops and groups engaged in setting government policy in areas such as science and investment in industry as well as my training and experience in process development and LEAN in the private sector. That opinion is that the Public Sector bodies I have engaged with are generally grossly inefficient at a structural level. I think people work hard but they certainly don’t work smart. There are exceptions but in general that is my experience.
But that’s all it is.
Do remember that this is a discussion forum.
I think the discussion around pay is the wrong one to have. I think it suits the Unions to keep it that way. In the meantime old people will still die on trolleys, bereft of their dignity, and children with special needs will still not get the support they need. No amount of money will fix that. Increasing spending in health at it is currently structured is like pouring more water into a leaky bucket instead of fixing the hole. The vested interests within the healthcare industry including the doctors and nurses and administrators and managers and everyone else who don’t want to see their little silo attacked are responsible for that. It is their fault that the sick and the vulnerable don’t get the help they need. It is not the fault of a Minister or anyone else, just them.
TheBigShort
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Is there no consideration to be made that perhaps low paid private sector workers are underpaid?
Considering increasing homelessness, considering the amounts of people in receipt of rent supplement, FIS, etc is it not becoming apparent that the incomes of low paid are increasingly insufficient?
Certainly DOB only last June pointed to a growing lean, competitive economy that wasnt manifesting in wage increases in the private sector.
That sounds like you were part of a lobby group?
This is bogus hyperbole. The reality is that it is policy that dictates the situations we find ourselves in.
If the policy over a couple of decades is to starve local authorities of money to build social housing, and public servants administer that policy, that is efficient public service. The policy is what is wrong, not the implementation of it.
Blaming health care professionals for waiting lists is bogus.
Blaming local authority staff for housing crisis is bogus.
It is the policy, which resonates with policies in UK, US and elsewhere that is the problem. All you have to do is follow UK, US media to see that the near mirror image of the social decay in those societies matches our own.
This is not coincidence, it is policy.
Right, so structural deficiencies in the day to day running of hospitals, the failure to identify, define and implement best practice is a failure of policy and not management... and that’s not bogus?
Why, does nobody in the health service or local authorities have the wit or intellect to improve anything?
Ah, I see; it’s all about ideology. Nothing to do with competence and structures. I’m glad you’re not running anything!
It doesn’t matter how good your policy is, if the structures are bad then services will be bad.
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