Public sector bashing-anyone else sick of it?
- Thread starter grahamo
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I've been thinking about this because you make an interesting point here. I would observe that there are just a few posters (very few, to be fair) who do appear to generalise across the entirety of the public service. No, I'm not going looking for quotes to back it up - I admit they're a small minority!
But you're right: quite a number of us are defensive. In my case - and I can speak only for myself - it's not that I think the civil or public service is perfect. My experience within the civil service has been that there are certain systemic problems. Thing is, they're nothing to do with bank time, or sick days, or obstructive unions - they're very significantly to do with managing assignments badly so people are placed in work to which they are just not suited. You may have someone at mid-level who is very good at, say, managing a large team of people doing routine work - but is placed as gofer and admin back-up for a small technical team. Or a person who's great on policy development put in a grant processing area even though they're border-line innumerate. Or a person who's good at dealing with the public, but is placed in a role where they have to write a lot even though they're plain bad at it.
All of them have actual real skills that we need, but are placed in roles where they are very nearly doomed to underperform - and much of that in the name of a "generalist" civil service where people are supposed to be able to turn their hands to any kind of work. Some people can, but many more can't.
There are people who are consistent non-performers in any role: yes, they are a drain.
There are others whose talents and abilities are not properly used: they too are a drain, but importantly it is not actually their fault and may not be for lack of effort (even though it's inevitably demotivating to be placed in a role you're completely unsuited to).
This is something that needs to be managed better for all our sakes. If we identify where people's greatest skills and aptitudes lie and assign them accordingly, then and only then can we identify the real deadwood - the people who can't be bothered or think they have no more than a sinecure.
So that's why I get defensive: because I think the wrong issues are being identified as "the problem with the public service".
But then, I'm not temperamentally suited to the kind of HR role I'd need to effect major change, so what can you do...
See above!
This is a brilliant post and completely summarises the problem. There is so much emphasis on civil servants being generalists, who can be assigned anywhere, that managers and personnel units seem to forget that some staff just will not have the aptitude for certain types of work and should not be assigned to those areas. While it is not possible to assign everyone to an area of work they are going to absolutely love, it is possible to ensure that no one is working in an area where they are absolutely miserable and getting no chance whatsoever to use their skills and talents. This is a fundamental problem in the Service, is well recognised but nothing is ever done about it.
To answer the original question, yes I'm sick of public service bashing. We're not perfect but neither are we the shower of wasters that some people are very anxious to convey. However, myself and my colleagues are also getting a bit of a laugh at some of the wilder stuff that's being bandied around. Our favourites so far are:
Civil servants get a half day a week to cash their pay check
Civil Servants have to take all their sick leave every year, and just add it on to their annual leave
Civil servants get flexi days, free, gratis and for nothing
I will also be adding to the list the statement that you must use 'pull' to get a civil service job. This is absolutely impossible to do and I do not know of one single person who has got a civil service job using pull. You must be thinking of the private sector.
During the 90's I'd go out for a couple of beers with mates of mine (Still do). Mostly Builders, Tradesmen, Taxi Drivers etc. They would give me a right oul slagging about my 'loser'
public sector job while they paid for rounds with £100 notes. (I remember there was a bloke with a beard on the front of the £100 note, I was only ever shown a £100 note, never actually owned one
).
These lads I grew up with were earning a lot more than me and I was fine with that. We had all came through the tough time that was the 80's together and I believed they deserved their bit of good financial luck as they worked f***ing hard enough for it.
I've noticed that now the 'good times' are over they are saying that over the long term I made the right choice by going into the public sector and 'Fair play to ye!' No animosity or bitterness at all. It seems thats reserved for the middle to upper classes
of Ireland. I wonder what their problem is? Cue lots of upper middle class posting claiming to be working class!
public sector job while they paid for rounds with £100 notes. (I remember there was a bloke with a beard on the front of the £100 note, I was only ever shown a £100 note, never actually owned one
).These lads I grew up with were earning a lot more than me and I was fine with that. We had all came through the tough time that was the 80's together and I believed they deserved their bit of good financial luck as they worked f***ing hard enough for it.
I've noticed that now the 'good times' are over they are saying that over the long term I made the right choice by going into the public sector and 'Fair play to ye!' No animosity or bitterness at all. It seems thats reserved for the middle to upper classes
of Ireland. I wonder what their problem is? Cue lots of upper middle class posting claiming to be working class!
Z
z104
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Good point purple, I would not put myself into a class. I would see myself equal with the poorest person or the wealthiest person. No one person is better than another.
What makes somebody put themselves into a bracket such as upper class or any class?? I would say ignorance.
What makes somebody put themselves into a bracket such as upper class or any class?? I would say ignorance.
R
rabbit
Guest
There are 2 types of class in this country ; public sector class ( plenty of holidays, security, pensions, coffee breaks, sick days + pay ) and the rest of us. There will be riots yet.
R
rmelly
Guest
And they get paid on top of all that? ridiculous
I see no purpose in this post other than to be divisive.
Really Bacchus? I wasn't aware of this data. Could you let me know the name of the report or piece of research which uncovered this? Or maybe that's just my public service training. Perhaps in the private sector its standard practice to base arguments on made up stats and assumptions.
I think like intellingence and a good sense of humour, class is something conferred on you by others - if you have any sense you don't say "I'm X class" - someone else tends to regard you as X class.
Mind you the whole notion is pants anyway.
Ron Burgundy
Registered User
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class ???
You have to have class.
Otherwise how do you............
Stay Classy
You have to have class.
Otherwise how do you............
Stay Classy
Yep, that's my view as well.
To add another one onto your list we supposedly get paid for flexi time we don't take. About 10 years ago I was in the pub and some lad stated this to me. He was very adamant and stated he knew it for a fact. There was no convincing him that it was pure and utter rubbish.
Some time later the same lad got a job with the Civil Service. I met him, congratulated him on his new position and asked him was he on flexi, to which he was. I then asked him does he get paid for untaken flexi at which he walked away. He has hardly spoke to me since.
I honestly do think that there is mass public hysteria going on at the moment which I do not hasten to add is very disheartening for us that are absolutely pulling our weight and love the jobs we are in. I was out with Mrs Boris the other night for a meal and could clearly hear one table slating the Public Service for which the whole basis of their argument was unfounded. While some of the points being given are very valid and worthwhile arguments, so many are just angry and dangerous incitements
We are all in this together and its turned into a public v private because both parties are not focusing on the job at hand.
Just like most of the country is talking about whos to blame and how they should pay, instead of what we can collectively do to fix the economy.
We all know we are all going to have to make sacrifices, but when it comes to sitting down and discussing it, it turns into a "why should I take the hit".
At the end of the day the private sector will adjust to the harsh realities of the economic downturn. The public sector should also be adjusted to reflect the value of "job security" in todays world.
I dont have a problem with many of the "perks" that are mentioned in the same breath as public service. Differant areas of public service have differant perks, differant levels of efficiency and differant levels of productivity. What I have a problem with is people dismissing these perks simply because they dont have them or dismissing some of the "myths" of public service sectors simply because they work hard.
Any stats can be used to argue for and against public servants. The only stat that matters to me is the one that shows the costs of the public service v the money in the coffers . . Whatever anybody says they just dont add up, so something has to give . .
The term "cut your coat according to your cloth" comes to mind.
I think that private sector workers are generally jealous of the comfort of job security (that comes in the public service) that they lack today. Most people in the private sector (on the lower scale of wages) earned no more in the celtic tiger years then those in the public sector who are now complaining that they may have to take a pay cut (while those in private sector may have to look elsewhere for employment). Some here seem to believe that most of us in the private sector lived it up in the good years, made a killing and are paying for it now. Is that any differant from Private sector workers believing that public sector workers get a handy number while working for the richest employer in the country!
A majority of people in the private sector are on or below the average industrial wage, yet dont have the "job security" that seems to be so undervalued by those in the public service.
At the end of the day, we shouldnt be arguing over who is going to take the hit on this. We should be knocking our heads together to figure out how we can all work together to get the country working again in a manner that spreads the "cost" fairly.
Just like most of the country is talking about whos to blame and how they should pay, instead of what we can collectively do to fix the economy.
We all know we are all going to have to make sacrifices, but when it comes to sitting down and discussing it, it turns into a "why should I take the hit".
At the end of the day the private sector will adjust to the harsh realities of the economic downturn. The public sector should also be adjusted to reflect the value of "job security" in todays world.
I dont have a problem with many of the "perks" that are mentioned in the same breath as public service. Differant areas of public service have differant perks, differant levels of efficiency and differant levels of productivity. What I have a problem with is people dismissing these perks simply because they dont have them or dismissing some of the "myths" of public service sectors simply because they work hard.
Any stats can be used to argue for and against public servants. The only stat that matters to me is the one that shows the costs of the public service v the money in the coffers . . Whatever anybody says they just dont add up, so something has to give . .
The term "cut your coat according to your cloth" comes to mind.
I think that private sector workers are generally jealous of the comfort of job security (that comes in the public service) that they lack today. Most people in the private sector (on the lower scale of wages) earned no more in the celtic tiger years then those in the public sector who are now complaining that they may have to take a pay cut (while those in private sector may have to look elsewhere for employment). Some here seem to believe that most of us in the private sector lived it up in the good years, made a killing and are paying for it now. Is that any differant from Private sector workers believing that public sector workers get a handy number while working for the richest employer in the country!
A majority of people in the private sector are on or below the average industrial wage, yet dont have the "job security" that seems to be so undervalued by those in the public service.
At the end of the day, we shouldnt be arguing over who is going to take the hit on this. We should be knocking our heads together to figure out how we can all work together to get the country working again in a manner that spreads the "cost" fairly.
S
S.L.F
Guest
Unfortunately the people who are going to have to sort this mess out are the same people who caused it.
But if there was an election tomorrow I'd vote for you...
Thanks for your support ! !
The sentence you highlighted was also intended for our country leaders. Instead of policical posturing they should treat the current crisis like a country at war.
I discussed it with several friends in differant areas of political circles and they found it unbeliebable that I could suggest such a thing. This seems to be a big part of the problem (people not willing to get innovative in response to our economic problems). People are just not open to all avenues on how to get things moving again, my suggestion may not be our answer but its not to say that its merits shouldnt be discussed. Drastic measures need to be implemented and if getting our parties working together multiplies the chances of us sorthing this out, then why not!
We are a smaller country then the US and the UK and have less options on the table regarding any potential stimulus package. Surely a dail working together would be better then a split floor looking to take advantage of popular opinions at any chance! To me this would be the Politicians getting "patriotic" and would be a bigger statement of intent then taking a paltry "for the cameras" 10% paycut on salaries over 150k!
Another thing that gets my goat is the illusion that public sector pensions are free. I worked in public sector for 25 years and paid 6.5% of salary towards my pension. Now I'm in the private sector and in the company the standard employee contribution is......5% with an employer contribution of 12%. It is of course a defined contribution scheme so no guarantee of net pay out but even if placed on deposit it would out rank my public sector entitlement and at a lesser cost to me than my public sector pension.
So as far as I'm concerned the public sector is not out of line - I would make an exception for some of the top salaries but despite the fact that I think they are indefensible they pale into insignificance compared to the top private sector salaries and pensions.
So as far as I'm concerned the public sector is not out of line - I would make an exception for some of the top salaries but despite the fact that I think they are indefensible they pale into insignificance compared to the top private sector salaries and pensions.
One thing that amazes me on this board is the amount of people stating that public service workers wouldn't last five minutes in the private sector. During the tiger years how many people were let down by builders, plumbers, electricians etc who failed to deliver on agreed contracts or didn't even bother to show up at all. How many people were delivered faulty goods only to find that the shop blamed the manufacturer, the manufacturer blamed the delivery firm, the delivery firm said it was nothing to do with them and the unfortunate consumer was left out of pocket. How many times were people left standing in shops while assistants leant on the counter chatting to each other. What about airlines who advertised cheap flights then added on all kinds of hidden charges once the non refundable fare had been paid, or solicitors who caused huge delays for people buying houses through laziness and inefficiency. Not to mention estate agents who lied through their teeth to get their commission. And there has been plenty of discussion on these boards about GPs charging ridiculous fees, refusing to make house calls, insisting patients make appointments then leaving them hanging around the waiting room for an hour. I could go on and on. Yes, the public sector has its faults and inefficiencies. But it amazes me the amount of private sector workers who are wandering around under the delusion that they are somehow examples of 'best practice'. Everyone is going to have to take some pain over the next few years including public service workers who are extremely grateful that they have relative job security.We accept that. It is the constant criticisms of us, by private sector workers who have nothing to boast or preen themselves about, that is p*ssing us all off.
S
S.L.F
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