PTSB PTSB loses Ombudsman case - 200 other tracker customers to be compensated

I got some more information on this case.

It was not contested that the 3.25% rate was too high. (The Ombudsman has already dismissed this argument.)
The issue of what a "discounted tracker" means was not at issue. (The Ombudsman has already dismissed this argument.)

Special condition 9 said: " On expiry of the discount period, the interest rate will be the then current ptsb tracker mortgage rate (comprising a certain percentage over the ECB rate) appropriate to the loan as may be varied in accordance with variations to the ECB rate."

The complainant was sent a rate options sheet in advance of the discount period ending.

The complainant chose the "LTV variable rate"

The rate options letter explained that if the borrower chose a fixed rate, they might not be offered a tracker rate when the fixed rate ended.

But the rate options letter did not explain the implications of choosing an "LTV variable rate"

The Ombudsman decided that if this had been explained, the borrower might have chosen the tracker, so he ordered that the tracker rate of ECB +3.25% be applied from the date the discounted period ended.

Brendan
 
Will you benefit from this decision?

To benefit from this decision you must meet two criteria
  1. you must have had special condition 9 " On expiry of the discount period, the interest rate will be the then current ptsb tracker mortgage rate (comprising a certain percentage over the ECB rate) appropriate to the loan as may be varied in accordance with variations to the ECB rate."
  2. You must have chosen a variable rate at the end of the discounted period.
If you did not have this special condition, then this decision does not apply to you.

If you had this condition , but chose a fixed rate, this decision does not apply to you.

This thread is about this very specific permanent tsb issue. If you did not have this condition, then don't ask a question about your case in this thread - if you do, it will be deleted. Start a new thread.

Brendan
 
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Around mid 2008, ptsb changed the wording of Special Condition 9 to say :

“On expiry of the Discount Period, the interest rate will be such rate as may be selected by the Applicant(s) from the Permanent TSB rates then offered by Permanent TSB for selection by the Applicant(s) or such variable rate (which may not be a tracker variable rate) as will apply in the absence of such selection”.

So, if you have this wording, this Ombudsman decision does not help your case.

Brendan
 
I have this clause but I had a +2.25% tracker rate option that was still higher than the variable rate on offer so I selected the variable under duress. The variable rates then started to rise above what the +2.25% tracker was. I was able to switch, unlike many others, and so I left to get a better rate.

I wonder how I will dealt with? as I'd have probably gone back on the tracker.
I'll have to go back and see what the rates were in the intervening period.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Will you benefit from this decision?

To benefit from this decision you must meet two criteria
  1. you must have had special condition 9 " On expiry of the discount period, the interest rate will be the then current ptsb tracker mortgage rate (comprising a certain percentage over the ECB rate) appropriate to the loan as may be varied in accordance with variations to the ECB rate."
  2. You must have chosen a variable rate at the end of the discounted period.
If you did not have this special condition, then this decision does not apply to you.

If you had this decision, but chose a fixed rate, this decision does not apply to you.

Brendan
Click to expand...
Brendan if you meet both criteria but moved from PTSB to a different mortgage provider 1 year later (variable rates increased from 3.3% to 4.05%) does the overcharge apply to the year you were still with PTSB as per the ombudsman ruling or does it refer to the subsequent years also with a new mortgage provider?
 
Hi LTL

No scheme of compensation has been put forward by ptsb yet, so we don't know.

Under the AIB Prevailing Rate scheme, AIB said it was not part of the Central Bank Tracker Mortgage Examination, so refused to apply the standards of that scheme.

I am sure that permanent tsb will try the same trick to save money.

Here is a case from ten years ago, where ptsb did take back a customer whom they had wrongly denied a tracker. There may be others on askaboutmoney.

Key Post - PTSB lost tracker; switched lender; returned to ptsb on tracker

Hi all, A final update on my issue re not getting a tracker reinstated. As you may know,I had a tracker,then fixed for five years.Nearing the end of the five years,which was November 2010,I was given a list of options,none of the options were for a tracker. I brought this to their...
www.askaboutmoney.com

permanent tsb should do the same, but they might try to get out of it.

So, if permanent tsb writes to you with a refund of €300 for the year's overcharge...

1) Complain to them in the first instance
  • ask them to recalculate it based on your new account. Send them your mortgage statements from the date you switched to date.
  • ask them to take you back on the tracker - At the end of the day, you probably won't avail of this offer if the margin is ECB + 3.25% , but you might go back if the tracker is 2.25% or lower. ( Check out this thread if and when you have a decision to make.)
2) If they refuse, you can go to the Ombudsman.

You will be complaining about the way it calculated the €300 refund, so your complaint will be new and will not be limited by the 6 years time limit.

Brendan
 
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Here is another case where ptsb initially offered compensation just for the few months before the switch, but eventually the customer got all the excess interest refunded and was taken back to permanent tsb.

PTSB - Switched from permanent tsb after losing tracker, now they are taking me back.

Edited by Brendan as this case is so important. Took out a tracker mortgage at a rate of ECB + 1.1% 8/11/2010 Fixed term expired. The interest rate options letter did not include a tracker option. 18/4/2011 Switched lenders to KBC 8/ 2011 – Received a phone call from ptsb to say that they...
www.askaboutmoney.com

PTSB - Success - switched from ptsb to AIB - Appeals Panel rejected my complaint, but ptsb took me back anyway!

Hi All. I took out a mortgage with permanent tsb in April 2008 and took a fixed rate for 2 years. In april 2009 i broke the fixed rate and went variable. In january 2010 I left the bank because I got a better variable rate from AIB. I still got the letter from permanent tsb that others got...
www.askaboutmoney.com

And another general thread dealing with the issue

PTSB - Has anyone who switched from permanent tsb been offered to switch back?

permanent tsb told Padraic and me that they would look favorably on cases where people who had incorrectly lost their tracker rates and later switched lender. I thought that there were some examples but could only find one...
www.askaboutmoney.com

Even though I say so myself, Askaboutmoney is a great resource for keeping a record of tracker issues so that people can arm themselves to take on the lenders. :)
 
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The advice from thedaras who was the first to switch back to ptsb is very good.

thedaras said:
I returned to PTSB and have been refunded all the monies owed to me.
A couple of things I have learned from all this:
Do not take their word for it;
Do not give up:
Do not act on information given on a website that may lead you to think you are not entitled to something,go for it anyway.
You need to gather all your documentation and keep it safe,I scanned all documents into a folder on my laptop.
Keep records.
You need a lot of time and energy and fight in you.
Click to expand...
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi LTL

No scheme of compensation has been put forward by ptsb yet, so we don't know.

Under the AIB Prevailing Rate scheme, AIB said it was not part of the Central Bank Tracker Mortgage Examination, so refused to apply the standards of that scheme.

I am sure that permanent tsb will try the same trick to save money.

Here is a case from ten years ago, where ptsb did take back a customer whom they had wrongly denied a tracker. There may be others on askaboutmoney.

Key Post - PTSB lost tracker; switched lender; returned to ptsb on tracker

Hi all, A final update on my issue re not getting a tracker reinstated. As you may know,I had a tracker,then fixed for five years.Nearing the end of the five years,which was November 2010,I was given a list of options,none of the options were for a tracker. I brought this to their...
www.askaboutmoney.com

permanent tsb should do the same, but they might try to get out of it.

So, if permanent tsb writes to you with a refund of €300 for the year's overcharge...

1) Complain to them in the first instance
  • ask them to recalculate it based on your new account. Send them your mortgage statements from the date you switched to date.
  • ask them to take you back on the tracker - At the end of the day, you probably won't avail of this offer if the margin is ECB + 3.25% , but you might go back if the tracker is 2.25% or lower. ( Check out this thread if and when you have a decision to make.)
2) If they refuse, you can go to the Ombudsman.

You will be complaining about the way it calculated the €300 refund, so your complaint will be new and will not be limited by the 6 years time limit.

Brendan
Click to expand...
Thank you Brendan.
I appreciate the clear instructions on how to proceed if needs be. We switched to EBS and stayed with that lender until we moved house 2 years ago. We have just recently entered into a fixed rate green mortgage of 2% so to reinstate a tracker is not the end goal but reimbursement of the additional interest paid up to this point is.
 
If you traded up and switched from ptsb, you will get a refund only up until the time you traded up.

Some people have argued that they would not have traded up if they had a tracker, but to the best of my knowledge any such arguments have not been successful with the banks or the Ombudsman.

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
If you traded up and switched from ptsb, you will get a refund only up until the time you traded up.

Some people have argued that they would not have traded up if they had a tracker, but to the best of my knowledge any such arguments have not been successful with the banks or the Ombudsman.

Brendan
Click to expand...
We technically traded down to a smaller suburban house but managed to get a good rate of 2.75% with Haven due to LTV. This was mainly down to the fact we used a redundancy pay out to reduce our mortgage twice in the 10 years with EBS to remove some of the pressure (again if we were on a tracker rate we would likely not have done this). That matter aside we paid excess interest on the house the original mortgage was on from 2009-2019.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. As with PTSB to date, I suspect we will need to arm ourselves and fight.
 
Referring to Brendan's first post, if PTSB has admitted another 200 are affected, how soon might we expect a letter? None received here yet. Has anyone received anything?
I wonder if the cohort who 'switched' are included in that 200 or will we have to apply separately?
 
Stitcher said:
Referring to Brendan's first post, if PTSB has admitted another 200 are affected, how soon might we expect a letter?
Click to expand...

To be fair, it's a complex enough process. And it will be overseen by the Central Bank.

They have to identify all the accounts.
They should then write to people saying - "We have identified a problem and will be back in touch".

Doing all the calculations on each account will be complicated and timeconsuming.

Brendan
 
Just wanted to update here. I received a letter from PTSB yesterday to say that my mortgage account is being reviewed in light of a decision by the FSPO. My current fixed rate was 3.25% and it has been reduced to 2.25%. PTSB also stated that they will write to me again in September to provide me with a progress so update so here's hoping everyone who is entitled to their tracker back gets it!!
 
DonnaM said:
Just wanted to update here. I received a letter from PTSB yesterday to say that my mortgage account is being reviewed in light of a decision by the FSPO. My current fixed rate was 3.25% and it has been reduced to 2.25%. PTSB also stated that they will write to me again in September to provide me with a progress so update so here's hoping everyone who is entitled to their tracker back gets it!!
Click to expand...

Hi DonnaM,

Can you please confirm? Was the 3.25% rate a fixed or a tracker rate?
Is the 2.25% rate a fixed or a tracker rate?
Thanks
 
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