proposed fox hunting ban in the UK..

Re: Adopt a fox

Ok. I take your points. I still believe the fanaticism will migrate to Ireland, but let's wait and see on that one.

Now I'm off to get bollixed and hunt a few foxes of my own (;-)

Have a nice weekend !

Re: Adopt a fox

Now I'm off to get bollixed and hunt a few foxes of my own (;-)

Sounds like a plan.

Re: Adopt a fox

only healthy ones run the course for which they are trained to do. These days if a hare gets killed its a rare event.

Click to expand...

So I take it you have no objection if I hunt you down with a large muzzled tiger, provided that of course you are healthy & trained. The sheer terror of being chased down by an animal many times your size and capable of killing you won't really bother you, will it?

Re: Adopt a toff

If fox-hunting gets banned over in England, you can be sure there will be more if it over here. All the toffs will be over on the ferry.

Re: Adopt a fox

The chances of me being hunted down by a large tiger, muzzled or not, are virtually non-existant. Whereas the chances of a hare being hunted by a dog, muzzled or not, are far greater even if its not in a coursing field.

Re: Adopt a fox

Hi Miner - Let's not forget that all dog owners have a duty to keep their dog under control at all times. If they can't ensure that the dog isn't chasing a wild hare, how can they ensure that the dog isn't worrying sheep or attacking young children? So a dog should not end up chasing a hare, on or off a coursing field. And of course, what is particularly sickening about coursing is that the situation of terrifying the hare is explicitly engineered to happen in the name of 'sport'.

The other important qualification that I forgot to mention in the 'tiger' scenario is that the chasee of course won't know that the tiger is muzzled, so he will assume that the tiger has the ability to rip him apart on the spot.

...

What next fishing?

Shooting?

It does seem the only people actively campaigning for a ban are city folk. Its hardly the most pressing issue on the irish political landscape.

Coursing

Whilst not an avid coursing fan I do go to and enjoy the occasional coursing meeting and know a lot of people that train/own coursing dogs. I won't try to persuade those that are against coursing that it's something they shouldn't dislike as that's obviously their right but in my experience it's very rare that the dogs touch the hare - the hare has such a tight turning circle that they simply turn and the dogs aren't able keep with the hare - the hare then goes through the escape. I understand the opinion that even the chase with muzzled dogs is cruel to the hare but from what I've seen the hare always has the advantage and I haven't formed the opinion there are grounds to ban coursing. There are far more cruel practices involving animals out there that deserve attention - were any of your cosmetics/toiletries tested on animals?

Re: Coursing

from what I've seen the hare always has the advantage

Well what's the point in it then? Does the hare always 'win'?

I've never been to one of these meetings, and am genuinely interested.

Re: Coursing

In coursing the object is not for a dog to catch or even touch the hare. When the hare is released it automatically runs in a direct line for the coloured escape at the far end of the course. The dogs are released when the person holding them judges the hare has enough of a start to not get into trouble. The hare can see behind him when running and when the dogs come close to the hare the hare will always turn in a tight circle (usually leaving the dogs in a heap trying to turn with it). The dog that is closest to the hare when it turns wins the course (this is judged by a guy on horseback trotting in line with the hare). What normally happens then is having turned and gotten away from the dogs the hare gets to the escape. Sometimes the dogs will get to the hare again before it escapes and the hare will turn again to lose them and then escape. Rarely (but in truth sometimes) the dogs will get to the hare before it escapes and will trap it (before the dogs were muzzled the hare would obviously be in serious trouble at this point). A guy is always waiting for this eventuality and pulls the hare from the dogs. The hare can be hurt by this and if it is a vet puts the hare down. That's the reality - again personally I don't think coursing should be banned because of this but I'm sure many disagree. Many would agree, though, as you would see from the large attendances at many meetings.

Re: Coursing

The shooting/fishing/cosmetic testing arguements are seperate issues, and neither strengthen or weaken the arguements for banning coursing.

Brouhaha - Do you have any pets? Do you mind if I chase them furiously down the road scaring the pants off them, once I don't actually hit them at the end of the road?

Re: Coursing

Society treats domesticated pets and wild/agricultural animals differently. Pets aren't roasted for Sunday lunch, used to test mascara, boiled down to produce glue or chased by greyhounds for sport. The question here is when talking about wild animals what is acceptable treatement to a civilised society and what is not. There is not a strong consensus that coursing in this country is unacceptable and personally I think a person that has gone to a coursing meeting with an open mind is more likely to accept it rather than want it banned - of course this isn't the case for everyone. But then that's the point - coursing isn't to everyone's taste.

Re: Coursing

I'm not sure I get the arbitrary distinction between pets & wild/agricultural animals, but for the sake of argument, lets focus on agricultural animals. Would you have any objection to me chasing down your sheep with my rotweiler (provided of course that I've muzzled him beforehand)? Or sending my muzzled & declawed cat into your henhouse?

There is no basis for coursing as a 'sport'. There is no justification, other than 'we've always done it that way'. It ranks with badger-baiting & dog-fighting.

Re: Coursing

It would be a damn fine trick if you were chasing any of my sheep or hens as I don't own any (I've been on a farm perhaps twice in my life) but if you were you're setting out to harm animals for the sake of harming animals - presumably because you enjoy such activity. That's illegal - it's why badger baiting and dog fighting were banned. Their sole purpose is the inevitable harming of the animals involved and is very sick. Coursing's purpose is to race greyhounds after hares to find the fastest dogs. It is done in a controlled environment where the hare is protected as much as is possible. The last thing the people that attend coursing meetings want is to see a hare hurt and it's not right to equate the many good people that go to coursing with badger-baiters. I've said already that some hares do get hurt and need to be put down (in my experience perhaps 1 in 100). It's your contention I think that this is enough reason to ban coursing - a view held by many reasonable people but not by all - I don't agree with it.

By the way the sport (as in pastime or recreation) comes from the rearing, training and racing of the dogs - same as track dog racing or horse racing.

Re: Coursing

Hi Brouhaha - Yes, I realise I'm starting to stretch my analogies here, but I'm trying to explore the principles involved. Thanks for your help in narrowing this down.

If I interpret you correctly, you tell us that coursing is accepting because

a) Only a small percentage of hares get injured
b) The injury to the hares is not intentional

I'm finding it hard to accept the 'not intentional' arguement. By putting a hare and trained greyhounds in the same field, you are setting up the scenario where the hare has a chance of getting caught by the greyhound. The whole artificial scenario is designed around putting the greyhound & the hare together.

Also, I think you are ignoring the sheer terror that must be caused to the hare. No-one tells the hare beforehand that the greyhound is muzzled, or that the he only has a 1 in 100 chance of being caught. I see no good reason to inflict this terror on an animal in the name of 'sport'.

Re: Coursing

Rainyday, I'm saying that coursing is accaptable in today's society largely for those reasons. Whether everyone likes it or not animals are used for sport. The hares obviously are in fear or they wouldn't run but they've been trained for two weeks prior so that they know that at the end of the run is safety. Now that the dogs are muzzled there's nothing more that can be done to guarantee the safety of all the hares without a ban. But in horseracing more horses are killed in races over jumps than on the flat. The only way to stop this would be to get the horses to go around rather than over the jumps which is not going to happen because society accepts those risks to the horse. Coursing is an easy target for campaigners as it's a minority sport but most of us have a bet on the Grand National despite the fact that more horses are killed in the 15 minutes of that race than hares in an average weekend of coursing. It's probably only the Grand National's popularity that saves it.

For an unrelated but perhaps interesting aside Siena's was strongly criticised for the injurys to horses that run in it so to placate animal rights campaigners they now only use horses saved from the knacker's yard.

Re: Coursing

Just referring back to the title of this topic (haven't read the rest of it) but bear in mind that the hunting ban does not apply to the UK but only England and Wales. Not sure if Scotland have their own rules on this?

Re: Coursing

Hi Brouhahaha- Interesting points about the Grand National. I guess we'll agree to disagree on the coursing issue.

Re: Coursing

Hi ClubMan,

The very first reply referred to the situation in Scotland and NI.

I read a very interesting article in yesterday's Telegraph (London not Belfast!) which said that more foxes have been killed since the Scottish hunting ban than before. It seems that in hunting when the fox goes to cover the fox has won and the hunt is over. However where foxes are being killed as vermin they can be shot and even dug out by terriers and killed.
When a link becomes availiable for the article I'll post it here.
ajapale

Re: Coursing

The very first reply referred to the situation in Scotland and NI.

Fair enough - as I said, I didn't read anything other than the title!