Problem with Biocycle

N

Ned_ie

Registered User
Messages
450
Hi all

I had the guys out to clean my biocycle and to dervice it. However, they have come across a problem. Essentially, the pipe connecting the last tank to the soakaway is falling the wrong way. it should be falling from the biocycle to the soakaway but when they were jetting the pipe out they noticed the flow was back to the tank. This effectively means that none of the water from the biocycle is making it to the soakaway and is causing damage to the biocycle unit itself.

The guy has suggested how this might be rectified as follows:
1 - short term fix, put a pump in place to pump the water into the soakaway. Problems: costs about €500 minimum excl wiring costs etc and is only gauaranteed for one year plus the additional ESB cost.
2 - dig down (about 7-8 feet due toadditional soil put on site) and tyr to reallign pipe if possible. If not possible to reallign pipe then a new soakaway will need to be dug. COst miminum €2,000. He won't know until he has dug down the first section whether or not the soakaway needs to be redone so could cost up to €6-7,000. Problems: New lawn just gone in and no money to fund this!!!

We bought the house 12 months ago as a second hand house. The house is only 4-5 years old. However, there is no homebond in place.

Have spoke to the solicitor who reckons we have to foot the bill as there is bugger all we can do about it.

My questions are:
1- Do we have any comeback on the builder on this? He installed the biocycle.

2- do we have any comeback against the engineer we paid to check out the property at time of purchase. He stated in his report that "5 no. sewer access chambers were visible around the dwelling. These were opened and inspected. All sewers are of uPVC construction and where inspected are clear and free- flowing." SHould he have been able to tell us that it was not in fact free flowing?

3 - What about the insurance on the house? Would we be able to claim on this?

Any help on this would be much appreciated - I just can't believe we are being screwed on this!

Thanks
 
Ouch .. did Biocycle themselves have any part to play in the installation or commissioning of the unit? I f so then that is probably your only recourse for getting satisfaction.

Otherwise I don't believe that you can get any satisfaction from the builder or engineer...... you have the 'buyer beware' thrown at you.. There is nothing to say that when the engineer check 12 months ago that the channels were blocked... could have only happened in the meantime.

Did you try to put it to the builder anyway?

ninsaga
 
The unit was purchased from a company in mallow that has since gone into liquidation. The builder told me that he installed it. Had to ask him about the unit before we got it serviced etc in order to know where it came from.

Have not spoke to builder about this new problem just yet. Am hoping to get some feedback from AAM users first to see what their thoughts are.
 
this sounds like a really messy problem, and one not easily fixed.
It sounds like the builder is responsible. The biocycle supply company might have fitted the unit but would thay have fitted the pipework to the percolution. Someone else might know this but i would think that the builder should have laid these tot he correct falls.
 
There is only one company in ireland that sell the biocycle system and there are base in Dublin. Don't know what system you have but it is not a biocycle system. Got a geniune biocycle system installed there two months ago. They installed the system and percolation area so things like this don't happen. I found them very helpful you should give them a ring and see if they can help you. You should be able to get there contact details for there web site www.biocycle.ie
 
Ned_ie,

You're having alot of the problems that I had with my old system...I've posted here about them before! I replaced a system I bought from a crowd in Cork that went belly-up with a biocycle.

I agree with beefy2003. The system you describe doesn't sound like a biocycle! It's probably just your average wastewater treatment system - alot of people call treatment systems "biocycles", just like we call vacuum cleaners "hoovers". If it's a biocycle it'll be a 3m diameter concrete tank with a green lid with "biocycle" written on it, it'll have a green box for the air-blower and, most importantly, it will have a pump built into it as standard. (When I bought my system off biocycle I asked them if I really needed a pump? They told me they couldn't supply the system without a pump, because the system would be no better than a septic tank! The pump ensures that the effluent gets distributed out to the percolation area.) Also, you mention "the last tank", which I presume means you have a system with more than one tank...the biocycle only has one tank! It sounds like you got conned! I believe some companies selling treatment systems claim to be selling "biocycles". It makes it really difficult for Joe Soaps like us to know what we're buying.

I disagree with your solicitor that there's bugger all you can do. Sounds like he's covering his own @rse! He probably was involved in the signing-off, along with your engineer, so THEY'RE responsible! The engineer was paid to sign-off on the property, including the treatment system. You should do a bit of homework first!
1. Go to the County Council offices and look up the planning application - see what planning was granted for, and what was actually installed - the fact that you bought the place second-hand could see some interesting info turn up here!
2. See who did the design for the system and the percolation area, and then who installed it. They obviously didn't do it properly, so they could be NEGLIGENT!! See who certified the work, because they might also be NEGLIGENT! All engineers should have professional negligence indemnity insurance to cover when they make f**k-ups like this, and it's them that should be footing the bill for it, not you!
3. You should hire a PROPER consultant engineer and a PROPER solicitor!

Apologies for going off on a bit of a rant, but I feel strongly about this because I got screwed before by cowboys and hate to hear about other sob-stories.

I don't think your house insurance will cover this, because insurance companies are smart enough to know how crap the majority of treatment systems out there are!

J.
 
Im not sure how an engineer could have known about this at the start. I dont really know the system but do you check its working properly if its not in use?
 
If I was an engineer certifying a system, I would realise that there's only so much my cert can cover. I'd contact the company that supplied the system and/or the builder that installed it to certify their work, and produce insurances too! Their certs would form the basis of my overall certification. It looks to me like the engineer just did a visual inspection! Why didn't he jet water into the pipe to see if the fall was ok? If he couldn't do this, then why didn't he say that he was unsure about the percolation area? He, in essence, gave Ned_ie false certification, which formed the basis of him buying a house! Imagine if before you bought a car you got a mechanic to check it and he gives it the "all-clear" only for you to drive down the road and the engine falls out of it!? Bottom line, if you pay for a service, you are entitled to get it!
 
Jambi,
im taking it that the engineer done a survey on the condition of the house before Ned bought. these surveys would not be a detailed as to get a jet to test the system. if you done this where you you end? im just saying that if the eng checked the system and it seemed to be working at that time i dont know how he be able to check that it wasnt working properly
 
I know exactly what you're saying ludermor, but the issue here is not whether or not he could have checked it...it's the fact that he said it was ok, when in fact it wasn't! He would have been far better off to flag the fact that he couldn't be sure, rather than giving someone the opinion that everything was fine.

Ned_ie said his percolation area was buried under 7-8 feet of soil (This amount of soil, especially if tracked and compacted by a machine, could have kinked or damaged the percolation pipes, causing the change in levels). It would have been a far better job if the pipes were installed far closer to the surface with inspection points. I know some sites can be awkward, with falls or whatever else, but a proper engineer/architect should be able to come up with a design to overcome any possible problems. Unfortunately there is a mind-set in Ireland that septic tanks and treatment systems should be "out of sight, out of mind"...instead these systems need to be maintained and inspected to make sure they're working.

The way I see it, the people involved in this are:
Designer - Designed percolation area...stated the falls of the pipe, amount of soil to be placed over, etc.
Installer - Dug trenches, installed piping, back-filled trench, put 7-8 feet of soil over
Original homeowner's Engineer - Certified the percolation area.
Ned_ie's Engineer - Was paid to check out the property. Never raised the issue that the percolation area was buried so far below ground, and may have problems.

One, or all, of these guys was negligent, and should foot the bill according to their level of negligence...not Ned_ie!
 
Jambi - I like the way you are thinking here. I am going to speak to the builder this evening to see the plans and to talk to him about the problem.

I am hoping to speak to a different solicitor too to see what the story is there and if the problem can be sorted out.

hopefully!
 
Hi all - back again.

Just to let you know I spoke with another solicitor and they advised holding off speaking to teh builder just yet. I am to meet with the solr next week and should know then what to do. This solr seems to think there might be a possibility that someone is "to blame".

I'm not out to get a load of cash of of it but just want to get the problem sorted so hopefully we'll see what happens!
 
Just a quick suggestion. Your solicitor goes to the builder/system designer/installer or original engineer are suggests that any of them are negligent. Put yourselves in their shoes how would you respond. When we put it in it was alright, the original homeowner must have carried out works that led to damage to the system. Cant see any negligence being attributed to them. As to comparing your engineer to a mechanice. I sent a ride on lawnmower into the service center last week. The clutch lead and blade engagement lead had been snapped. Only mentioned that the clutch cable was broken. Guess what The blade cable was never fixed. You cant expect your engineer to inspect every aspect of the property. Unless you want to pay a significant amount of money.
 
Meathman - I thought I had paid him a considerable amount of money considering the report he produced!
 
Surely you don't expect him/her to be able to be able to find or predict every conceivable problem for you. He has to assume that if engineer a(or homebond) certified the foundations as being ok then its ok. He also has to assume that the treatment plant installer did his job properly. If you want him to ascertain for himself that each element of the property is built to standard then you will pay considerably more. I know its annoying but thats life. I recently sold a house, got a snag list from the purchasers engineer only to find that instead of building a 4 bedroom house i did in fact build a 5 bedroom house. A friend bought a house only for the ceiling of a room to fall 18 months later. There are so many things that cant seen until after failure.

Only one thing is certain. If you go the legal route it will end up costing a lot more. A good solicitor will do there best to dissuade you from this route. MOST however wont.
 
Meathman99, Ned_ie paid the engineer to "check out the property". If the engineer produced a certificate and he was unsure about any part of the development, his certificate should have stated "compliance with the following cannot be established: treatment system, percolation area, etc..."

The situation that Ned_ie is faced with is common, but exacerbated by people making excuses for chancers! The building profession is being brought into disrepute by cowboy builders taking short-cuts, and similarly, the engineering profession is losing credit because of gobsh*tes giving incorrect certification, and in some cases, giving certification without lifting their butts off their office chairs! I know it's impossible to predict every problem with a house, but if the engineer was doing his job right he wouldn't have needed to worry in this case. If he looked for a certificate of installation from the manufacturer of the treatment system, and also from the builder, problem solved. If he couldn't get these, then he should have said that compliance couldnt' be established, so at least Ned_ie would know that there was an element of doubt. If the engineer assumed that the treatment plant installer did his job properly he should have clearly stated that his certification was based on an assumption! Don't make excuses for someone who acts in a negligent manner...it's giving them a licence to go out and fleece some other misfortunate.
 
Ned,
the engineers did not certify the system.The house was bought second hand so it would have been certified at construction stage. To say ''his certificate should have stated "compliance with the following cannot be established: treatment system, percolation area, etc..." is a pile of nonscense. He would have to say the same about foundations, walls, roofs, plumbing etc. The engineer was employed to do a survey of the property so he can only survey what is visable ( he cant go breaking walls to ckeck if they are ok) You have to be reasonable here.
 
People need to realise that there are limitations with EVERY SERVICE in EVERY SECTOR. If this was not the case we wouldnt need the court service. Person A would walk into his solicitor explains his case. The solicitor would then say "OK you re due X" everybody would accept this.
This however is not the case. Defendants and plaintiffs pay significant amounts of money to legal teams who are adamant they ll win.

If you go to a car mechanic and tell him X needs fixing. Guess what whats all he does. If you re lucky he ll give you an estimate which will never have decreased when it comes to paying the bill. He wont try to find every single fault.

Same with doctors

In any transaction there are only 3 variables TIME QUALITY COST

You can only have 2
Even then there are limitations. The engineer cant dig up a lawn to establish if asbestos has been buried in it.
 
The engineer wasn't asked to dig up a lawn...he was asked to comment on the compliance of the house with the Building Regs. This involves stating the fitness for purpose of the treatment system and percolation area. If he was unsure, he should have said so. If he couldn't inspect the percolation area to comment, he should have said so. All he had to do was get the certificate of installation, etc. It's not nonsense to expect a professional to work for their money.

I don't understand why everyone is giving examples such as the engineer digging a garden for asbestos, knocking walls, etc. All he had to do was inform his client of the limitations of his survey, instead of giving the impression it seemed fine. I expect he had a quick look around, ticked a few boxes and was gone again. Fill in the blanks back in the office, sign it and job done. There are engineers out there certifying houses without even leaving their offices. I know of one engineer that a friend of mine used in Galway and he signed off on a house from the comfort of his desk...he hadn't been near the house in weeks to inspect.
 
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