Colm Fagan
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Bitcoin is at €10,015.69.
Anyone fancy shorting it?
Yahoo said:Bitcoin and Ethereum crash by more than 12% in 6 minutes as more than $1B of positions gets liquidated
Hi Colm. I'd be inclined to think of it as another option that sits alongside conventional currencies rather than a replacement (but views differ on that too). Your point is well made and absolutely valid.Guys
I don't know a thing about bitcoin, so forgive the naivety of my question.
I understand that bitcoin can be viewed either as an investment or as a replacement for conventional currencies. If I consider it as an investment, I want it to increase in value by as much and as quickly as possible. If I consider it as a currency, I want it to have a reasonably stable value, so that I can know with reasonable confidence how many loaves of bread I can buy for a bitcoin or how many bitcoins it will cost me to buy a car (definitely not a Tesla in my case!). How can these apparently conflicting objectives be reconciled?
No drama here that hasn't been discussed ad nauseum. It's an example of a small $200 billion market being moved. That is in no way unique to bitcoin - it speaks to market size. As bitcoin market cap expands, that - alongside volatility generally - will dissipate. As it stands today, bitcoin is still 60% up year to date.Good tip Wolfie
Good tip Wolfie
Unfortunately not. I couldn’t tell whether it was a tip or a challenge. I see now it was a tip. I hope you filled your boots.Yeh, but did you take it up?
Unfortunately not. I couldn’t tell whether it was a tip or a challenge. I see now it was a tip. I hope you filled your boots.
The magic Fiat money trees are in season.
Bitcoin, is still 45% up year on year. Not bad in the midst of a pending economic crisis.
Time to buy some more.
Colm, we should split "investment" into two categories (a) speculative and (b) store of value. We have right here on AAM living examples of both varieties. Wolfie admits that bitcoin could go to zero but he is bullish that it will shoot the lights out. He has, in his own words, a small punt on that happening. Wolfie is a speculator, which might jar a little with his Shortie world view. tecate on the other hand is an out and out "store of value" man (apologies for not being gender neutral).Guys
I don't know a thing about bitcoin, so forgive the naivety of my question.
I understand that bitcoin can be viewed either as an investment or as a replacement for conventional currencies. If I consider it as an investment, I want it to increase in value by as much and as quickly as possible. If I consider it as a currency, I want it to have a reasonably stable value, so that I can know with reasonable confidence how many loaves of bread I can buy for a bitcoin or how many bitcoins it will cost me to buy a car (definitely not a Tesla in my case!). How can these apparently conflicting objectives be reconciled?
I note your requirement for a working currency - which is essentially short term price stability. Bitcoin does not aspire to that role, which must be the preserve of centralised FIAT and is economy specific - thus dollars do not serve Brits well as a currency. When Kelleher talks about bitcoin being a medium of exchange I think he essentially means a medium for exchanging FIAT but without the perceived drawbacks of exchanging FIAT directly, which seem to revolve around its transparency or what the cultists call its censorship.John Kelleher of Investopedia said:One of the biggest issues is Bitcoin's status as a store of value. Bitcoin's utility as a store of value is dependent on its utility as a medium of exchange. We base this in turn on the assumption that for something to be used as a store of value it needs to have some intrinsic value, and if Bitcoin does not achieve success as a medium of exchange, it will have no practical utility and thus no intrinsic value and won't be appealing as a store of value.
I note your requirement for a working currency - which is essentially short term price stability.
thus dollars do not serve Brits well as a currency.
In that case, having some gold to melt down and use to pay for necessary provisions makes some sense.
I was thinking of Armageddon. If society as we know it collapses, anything depending on the internet will have no value. Gold will.In a digital, internet age, there is no need for cumbersome tasks of holding gold and melting it down
I was thinking of Armageddon. If society as we know it collapses, anything depending on the internet will have no value. Gold will.
My main point is that, if bitcoin ever gets to being a widely accepted currency, one that holds its value reasonably well over time, neither inflating or deflating, then there's no point in hoarding it.
The makey-upey statistic? I wouldn't say it's unique per se Dukey but it certainly has your stamp on it.Figures from the MSO show that over 98% of bitcoin trades are speculative. This is surely unique.
Here's a real stat. 10% of gold's use is industrial - leaving a price that in no way reflects that industrial use and 90% use split between speculative interest and store of value use case. It's going to be a difficulty to tease apart speculative trades from more wholesome store of value use. However, here's something of interest for you. Appox. 11 million BTC have not moved in over a year. Seems more indicative of store of value than speculative trading.Every asset has to some degree a speculative aspect e.g. Gold, but can an entity sustain a price indefinitely on speculation alone?
John Kelleher was introduced to discussions here by his Dukeness. At that point, he was alright in his book and wasn't a bitcoin evangelist. It wasn't until later when Dukey found that John's scriblings didn't support his world view that John fell off Dukey's Crimbo Card List.For the answer to this we look to one of tecate's favourite reference sources. John Kelleher of Investopedia is a bitcoin evangelist but the following reflection of his is right on the money so far as I am concerned
Indeed it is when you continue to quote it out of context and leave out parts. Kelleher's article in its entirety states that gold is king as regards store of value yet gold cannot be used and is not used as a medium of exchange. Ergo bitcoin doesn't have to establish itself as a medium of exchange first - in order to initially mature as a store of value.....but the following reflection of his is right on the money so far as I am concerned
It certainly does aspire to that role. Over the course of its eleven years, bitcoin volatility https://en.longhash.com/news/data-shows-bitcoins-price-volatility-has-been-declining-over-its-10-year-history (has been reducing year on year). Granted it has a ways to go - and that process is going to take many more years - but it will get there. It's logical that as its market capitalisation expands and as it matures as an asset, price volatility will drop.I note your requirement for a working currency - which is essentially short term price stability. Bitcoin does not aspire to that role
I disagree.which must be the preserve of centralised FIAT and is economy specific
Please point out where he states that (because he says no such thing).When Kelleher talks about bitcoin being a medium of exchange I think he essentially means a medium for exchanging FIAT but without the perceived drawbacks of exchanging FIAT directly, which seem to revolve around its transparency or what the cultists call its censorship.
.I understand the aspiration for bitcoin to become a recognised currency, to sit alongside fiat currencies (and presumably other crypocurrencies?). If and when it does achieve that status, however, I don't see why anyone would want to 'invest' in it.
In monetary or economic collapse, I believe both gold and bitcoin serve a purpose. At an 'armageddon' level where society has completely fallen apart - I think guns are going to be far more useful to people in that situation than either gold/bitcoin.In gold's case, however, I do see the logic in putting some aside in case Armageddon happens and we have to revert to stone age society. In that case, having some gold to melt down and use to pay for necessary provisions makes some sense.
Bitcoin doesn't depend on the internet. If the internet vanishes tomorrow, anyone can still transact bitcoin via satellite. If one person in a community has access to either a genny or a few solar panels and a sat receiver, then bitcoin can be transacted. Bitcoin can also be transacted by short wave radio, and by sms if there was still a mobile network running or someone managed to get one working. We're a few years away from it, in the future we'll have mesh networks - which are peer to peer networks rather than centralised networks. Bitcoin can be transacted via mesh networks also.I was thinking of Armageddon. If society as we know it collapses, anything depending on the internet will have no value. Gold will.
Your bitcoin and gold will retain their value. Your fiat on the other hand will be stealthily eroded away by inflation and currency debasement.What's the value in hoarding my wealth, irrespective of whether it's in bitcoins, in gold, or in jam jars full of fiat currency?
So let me understand this correctly Colm. When gold increased 2,300% over the course of the 1970s, there would have been no value in holding it? And as a follow up, what do you think the folks that contribute to the $9 trillion market cap of gold are playing at exactly?I would much prefer to invest in businesses that can be expected to hold their value in real terms over time as well as delivering a regular income. If I'm more risk-averse, I will lend it on terms that I expect will reward me for forgoing consumption. There is no reward, nor should there be a reward, for hoarding just for the sake of hoarding. That is true, irrespective of whether the savings are hoarded in fiat currency, in bitcoin or in gold.
There is no reward, nor should there be a reward, for hoarding just for the sake of hoarding.
If you were minded to think that it could inflate against the euro, or dollar, why wouldn't you hoard it?
I checked gold prices since the 1970's. The price was artificially pegged to the dollar until August 15 1971. Naturally, the uncoupling had a massive impact on the price, as I'm sure you know well.When gold increased 2,300% over the course of the 1970s, there would have been no value in holding it?
I don't believe in hoarding money, period. To repeat, it doesn't matter in what currency it's hoarded. I prefer to put it to work, earning interest, dividends or capital growth.There is no reward, nor should there be a reward, for hoarding just for the sake of hoarding. That is true, irrespective of whether the savings are hoarded in fiat currency, in bitcoin or in gold.
Yes, I accept the clarification.John Kelleher was introduced to discussions here by his Dukeness.
Incorrect. I had read his whole Investopedia piece. It was the fact that he was such an evangelist, pure tecate, that impressed me so much with that key paragraph. Which I summarise as "bitcoin will not make it as a long term store of value if it does not make it as a medium of exchange". This was an ideal opportunity for me to "quote scripture". The following doesn't quite tell me where you stand on this key point.At that point, he was alright in his book and wasn't a bitcoin evangelist. It wasn't until later when Dukey found that John's scriblings didn't support his world view that John fell off Dukey's Crimbo Card List.
"first", "initially"? Can you answer yes or no do you agree with the above JK's key point? It does not need contextualising. It does not state that in general terms being a store of value is predicated on being a medium of exchange. Gold, precious stones, jewellery in general, fine art, real estate etc. are all counter examples. But JK is stating in no uncertain terms that the conditionality does apply to bitcoin. I 100% agree with him and for what its worth the greatest evangelist of them all, Satoshi, made this clear in his/her/their Gospel (aka White Paper).Indeed it is when you continue to quote it out of context and leave out parts. Kelleher's article in its entirety states that gold is king as regards store of value yet gold cannot be used and is not used as a medium of exchange. Ergo bitcoin doesn't have to establish itself as a medium of exchange first - in order to initially mature as a store of value.
I'm speculating. Does JK mean my making it as a "medium of exchange" that a critical mass of folk directly price and negotiate their goods and services in bitcoin? For example will employers be offering bitcoin salaries to attract employees? Or does he mean that folk will still negotiate and price in their fiat currency but use bitcoin as the medium of exchange for consummating deals? Which do you think he means? Which version do you think bitcoin will attain?I disagree.
Please point out where he states that (because he says no such thing).
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